Need a 35mm or medium format camera, have a few choices in mind, please sound off

[cgw]

I wouldn't bother with an old "heavy metal" Mamiya 645(M645)on offer from KEH. They're borderline relics now and usually need new light seals throughout. Unlike the newer 645 Super/Pro/ProTL, they don't use film backs, just inserts--so no mid-roll film changes. A WLF on a 645 is fine provided you plan on shooting everything landscape--they're near-useless for portrait-oriented shots. A 645 Super or Pro body, prism finder, back with a 120 insert, and an 80/2.8 won't break the bank.

Portra 160/400 are gorgeous. Ilford XP2 is nice for C-41 b&w portrait work.

 

[limr]

The Mamiya 645 Pro TL is a great camera but it's certainly not the opposite of "heavy metal". It's heavy and beastly. Awesome pictures, but not something you just casually throw over your shoulder to go out for a day of street shooting. I've been wanting a waist-level finder for my Pro TL and have been told the same thing - they're useless for portrait orientation. But honestly, I can't say that it makes any difference because I think in the 8 years or so that I've had that camera, I've taken maybe 2 pictures in portrait orientation. I personally just don't think of medium format that way. Maybe others do, and that's fine, but if the sole drawback to a TLR or an SLR with a waist-level is that you don't shoot portrait...well, that's not reason enough to deter me.

I found it difficult to wrap my head around medium-format when I first started shooting with the Mamiya, but things started to click a lot more easily when I got a Lubitel 166B TLR. I think it's not only surprisingly good for a plastic box, but it's also a nice way to ease into medium format and test to see if it's worth it to spend money on better gear. After getting used to that, I picked up the Mamiya again and my pictures from that camera were significantly better.

And I don't care what you say about old "heavy metal" - I long for a C330.

 

[dsiglin]

Funny you should mention the

Lubitel 166B, limr. I ran across that for the first time last night. So you think it might be a good introductory camera for medium format?

Btw - I had forgotten I have a polaroid landcamera 210 automatic and 95a sitting on my shelf. Not that they are really feasible to use.​

 

[cgw]

The Mamiya 645 Pro TL is a great camera but it's certainly not the opposite of "heavy metal". It's heavy and beastly. Awesome pictures, but not something you just casually throw over your shoulder to go out for a day of street shooting. I've been wanting a waist-level finder for my Pro TL and have been told the same thing - they're useless for portrait orientation. But honestly, I can't say that it makes any difference because I think in the 8 years or so that I've had that camera, I've taken maybe 2 pictures in portrait orientation. I personally just don't think of medium format that way. Maybe others do, and that's fine, but if the sole drawback to a TLR or an SLR with a waist-level is that you don't shoot portrait...well, that's not reason enough to deter me.

I found it difficult to wrap my head around medium-format when I first started shooting with the Mamiya, but things started to click a lot more easily when I got a Lubitel 166B TLR. I think it's not only surprisingly good for a plastic box, but it's also a nice way to ease into medium format and test to see if it's worth it to spend money on better gear. After getting used to that, I picked up the Mamiya again and my pictures from that camera were significantly better.

And I don't care what you say about old "heavy metal" - I long for a C330.

Sorry but do you really shoot with a ProTL? I use a Super with a prism finder and drive grip on the street and it's far from "heavy and beastly" in terms of weight--maybe you're thinking about an RB/RZ67. FYI, most TLRs are 6x6, so there's no need to flip the camera. Do you shoot all your 35mm in landscape only, too?

 

[dsiglin]

Maybe this is a noobish question - what advantages, if any, does a camera in the style of a Mayami 645 have over a TLR camera?

 

[limr]

Sorry but do you really shoot with a ProTL? I use a Super with a prism finder and drive grip on the street and it's far from "heavy and beastly" in terms of weight--maybe you're thinking about an RB/RZ67. FYI, most TLRs are 6x6, so there's no need to flip the camera. Do you shoot all your 35mm in landscape only, too?

No, I'm not thinking of another camera. I know what camera I have. The last time I took the 645 ProTL out, I had a crick in my neck after a couple of hours and it wasn't even hanging from my neck - I was carrying it like a messenger bag when I wasn't actually taking a picture. Maybe it's lighter than a Bronica or a Hasselblad, but for someone used to shooting 35mm and trying to get started in medium format, everything is going to seem heavy and beastly. Even if the 645 ProTL were the lightest on the market, it's still a large, heavy camera. The prism finder actually accounts for quite a bit of weight. I don't even use the power winder, but that also adds weight. The 80mm lens isn't so bad, but larger lenses are going to make it even bulkier. With all the bells and whistles added to it, would it really weigh significantly less than the M645?

I just don't see why it's necessary to get so complicated with a camera for someone just wanting to ease into medium format. So yes, dsiglin, I think the Lubitel would be a good way to test the waters and see if you want to stick with the format. It's very lightweight, a good one can be had for less than $100 (mine was $60 and it was ready to go. There's a guy in NYC that buys them, cleans them up, and resells. He's got a couple of Lubitels now: - Medium Format: Other, Fedka.com) And as I said, you'd be surprised at how good the pictures are out of something made out of plastic.

I own the Mamiya quite honestly because it was a gift from some students a few years back. They worked for Mamiya and they built me a camera because they saw my pictures, thought they were very good, and wanted me to have a medium format so I could push my skills further. I wouldn't give it up and I do really like it, but I also recognize that I probably wasn't ready for it. It was too much. And part of that was because it is not the easiest camera to just take out and shoot, so I didn't do it that often, thus not getting a lot of practice with it. I "downgraded" to the Lubitel and that's when medium-format really started making more sense to me. As I said, this got me more prepared to shoot with something like the 645 ProTL.

No, I don't shoot 35mm in landscape only, but that's irrelevant the discussion of how I shoot with the Mamiya.

 

[limr]

Funny you should mention the

Lubitel 166B, limr. I ran across that for the first time last night. So you think it might be a good introductory camera for medium format?

Btw - I had forgotten I have a polaroid landcamera 210 automatic and 95a sitting on my shelf. Not that they are really feasible to use.​

Answered the Lubitel question above.

I don't know enough about the 95a to know what film it used, but the Polaroid 210 is still feasible. Fuji makes pack film. Just a few months ago, I dusted off my automatic 100 and have been working with it. Amazon sells both film and 4.5 volt batteries. There are also plenty of YouTube videos that show how to convert the battery pack to a three AAA pack if you don't want to pay $10 for a 4.5 volt battery.
Fuji color film (100C):Amazon.com: FUJIFILM FP-100C 3.25 X 4.25 Inches Professional Instant Color Film: Camera & Photo
Fuji B&W (3000B): Amazon.com: FUJIFILM FP-3000B 3.34 X 4.25 Inches Professional Instant Black and White Film: Camera & Photo

Edited: There is also expired Polaroid 100-series film available on ebay. That's tricky, though, because most sellers are trying to sell it for really high prices, but I just got a couple of packs for about $10 a piece, which is about equivalent to what the Fuji costs.

 

[cgw]

Such is life with MF, limr. Mamiya 645 lenses aren't appreciably bigger or heavier than 35mm versions. Weight-wise, my Nikon F3+MD4+85/1.8 is a bit heavier than my 645 Super kit. Pro film bodies like the Nikon F5 are close in weight. But I'm thinking it's size as much as weight that's bugging you out. I have Bronica SQ-B kit that's actually lighter and a bit smaller than the Super kit. Old TLRs and folders are more compact but I shied away from them when started with MF around 6 years ago. Lack of interchangeable lenses, no film backs, and concerns about reliability and repair costs/availability bothered me.

 

[cgw]

Maybe this is a noobish question - what advantages, if any, does a camera in the style of a Mayami 645 have over a TLR camera?

Ability to change lenses and swap film mid-roll with newer Mamiyas with film backs. The big Mamiya TLRs do have interchangeable lenses.

 

[limr]

Such is life with MF, limr. Mamiya 645 lenses aren't appreciably bigger or heavier than 35mm versions. Weight-wise, my Nikon F3+MD4+85/1.8 is a bit heavier than my 645 Super kit. Pro film bodies like the Nikon F5 are close in weight. But I'm thinking it's size as much as weight that's bugging you out. I have Bronica SQ-B kit that's actually lighter and a bit smaller than the Super kit. Old TLRs and folders are more compact but I shied away from them when started with MF around 6 years ago. Lack of interchangeable lenses, no film backs, and concerns about reliability and repair costs/availability bothered me.

Yes, such is life with MF. I get that.

It just comes down to style and preference, of course, and also just knowing what to expect. I understand wanting the flexibility with lenses and backs that the more modern cameras give, and it's certainly an advantage. Never said they weren't, but just that these things - as well as portrait orientation - simply aren't a priority for me at this time. Also, when I was just starting with MF, I wouldn't have known what to do with them anyway, so they were wasted on me.

Essentially, I approached it differently from you (thus, our different advice to the OP.) I started photography the same way I started driving: learn on a really basic car that gives me minimal options but total control over those options. If something goes wrong, things are simple enough that I can figure out what went wrong and learn how to fix it. Then build up more options, more power, more variables.

With cameras, I did better with the Lubitel because there were fewer variables to worry about - and thus fewer distractions - and I found it easier to make the leap from 35mm that way. The size of the Mamiya compared to what I shoot more regularly is a bit off-putting, to be sure, but it's much less so now that I'm more comfortable with the format. I still call it the Beast, but perhaps I should make it clear that I do so in a fond and complimentary way.

But everyone is different. You clearly felt more comfortable with the options of the modern cameras vs the potential limitations and reliability of the older cameras. I didn't mind those limitations in the initial stages, but felt overwhelmed with all the bells and whistles on the ProTL.

 

[gsgary]

Maybe this is a noobish question - what advantages, if any, does a camera in the style of a Mayami 645 have over a TLR camera?

Mamiya C330 TLR with 80mmF2.8 lens shot at F2.8

and a crop of above shot

 

[limr]

Nice. I so want a C330.

Here's a sample from the Lubitel in a similar vein (larger view plus crop).




Edited: To dsiglin, OP: Enlarging these images is worth it to get the sense of how much detail you can get from MF.

 

[gsgary]

^ looks good to me

 

[dsiglin]

So I found a c30 just the body sans lens or waist level finder for $40. Should I jump on that?

 

[unpopular]

FUJI GX680! (right derrel?)

Seriously though, yes. Jump on the C30. Heavy, but with interchangeable lenses, lots of bellows extension, parallax correction, the Mamiya C-series is the best TLR you can get.