Lessons Forgotten (???) From the 1918 Pandemic

[Soocom1]

I still think it all lies in green chilie...

 

[Jeff15]

Beer works for me..............

 

[pendennis]

Dr. Hobday isn't the only one who advocates warm weather and sun as a preventive. Journalist/Author Matt Ridley has advocated the same treatment. Ridley has written a number of books on scientific subjects. His best (IMHO) is "The Evolution of Everything: How New Ideas Emerge".

Author John M. Barry, in his book "The Great Influenza..." details the spread of the influenza pandemic in 1918, and the fight waged by Dr. William Welch and his colleagues. The book tells of the very conditions replete in Army camps, ships, and crowded urban areas for spreading the virus.

Viruses do well in dark, wet, warm conditions (nasal and bronchial passages). Sunshine and warmth are the enemy, as is anything which damages the virus' coating. One of the treatments being tested is an endo-trachial tube using LCD UV radiation to kill viruses in the trachea, bronchial tubes, and upper lobes of the lung.

 

[Soocom1]

So in all seriousness New Mexico has quite the little crudmunion going on.

The above mentioned aspects of virus killing et-al involves lots of UV light and fresh air.
To whit. New Mexico has A HELLUVA LOT OF!

Now we also have green chili to whit I joke about, but consider the capsaicin aspect and the vitamin c and d levels involved.

Most of NM is well above 4000ft. in elevation (1219 meters above sea level) and a goodly portion of that above 5500 ft.
So we have ALOT of UV light and the index is way above most other areas.

BUT!!!!!!! (and i am assuming that the reporting is ligit and accurate) the Navajo Nation is getting HAMMERED by this bug! Why?

Those not familiar with the Nation:
Navajo Nation - Wikipedia

There is a section on the Geography and then a section specifically on COVID 19.

Each time I read it my heart breaks. The numbers keep changing.

But also understand that much of the nation though filled with iPhones and internet, live mostly in 19th century conditions.

So though I agree partially with the synopsys of the article initially, the Nation poo poos some of the claims IMO because there is something else to this that isn't jiving with current knowledge.

 

[pendennis]

...
My mom said it reminded her of polio, and they had to keep kids out of public swimming pools, etc. It wasn't of course this restrictive. But once there was a vaccine that was the end of it. Now we've seen childhood diseases that were eradicated (or nearly completely) return, since there have been people not getting their kids vaccinated because of misinformation online. I hope once there's a vaccine for this that everyone will get one.

I was five years old in 1952, probably the last great summer outbreak of polio. I contracted a mild case, but my aunt (15 at the time), was completely devastated, becoming a quadriplegic, and having to live that way, using iron lungs, chest respirators, and finally tracheal respirators. She lasted for 45 years in that condition. She was a "country girl" visiting us in the summer that year, and she contracted polio about two weeks after visiting us when I had my case (mid-August).

The reasons for the virus have never been isolated to what would be related to "Patient Zero" in a particular outbreak. Swimming pools were suspect, as were sand boxes, etc. However, there seems to be some favorability in "herd immunity". In the early-t0-mid 20th Century, the U.S. was in the midst of the "Great Migration" from a rural economy, to an industrial economy. Folks moved to cities where people may have developed natural immunity; at least that's a theory.

There are also folks out there who believe that polio would have died out regardless the Salk and Sabin vaccines. However, I know of no "boomers" who ever regretted taking the shots or the sugar cubes.

 

[Derrel]

 

[Derrel]

Peer review counts for a lot. A hell of a lot. Anyone can publish these days. Within a few minutes one can find almost any topic on a search engine or two or even three. The fact that something has been published means basically nothing. What really means a lot is peer review.

Remember, it was not that long ago that some crackpot scientist published an article that put forth the idea that vaccines lead to autism. Even though the article was repudiated, the damage was done. His BS postulations swayed a lot of people.

If you stop and think about it for even a few minutes, it might not be sunlight so much as getting Outdoors and keeping yourself away from other people. But this engineer who wrote a book about the health benefits of sunlight is way off his rocker I think in terms of saying that sunlight can prevent osteoporosis, heart disease, breast cancer, and other medical maladies. I think that is wishful thinking, and his writing does not make a distinction between correlation and causality, which is really what this BS is about people who work in high-density indoor office environments art at Great risk for the spread of all sorts of communicable diseases feed people who are Outdoors, alone, and well-separated from others are at less risk. Once again we need to look at correlation and not conclude that sunlight is a preventative measure on its own.

About 20 years ago I bought a book about the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, 1919, and 1920. Antibiotics had not been invented then, and many people thought that the disease was caused by bad wheat. I do not think that the lessons that we learn from the Spanish Flu pandemic has all that much to take away from today. Social distancing and our knowledge of what a virus is and how to kill a virus is something that was simply unknown back in the 19-teens.

If you want to do a little bit of research about a lesson that was not retained, I encourage you to look at what happened in the city of San Francisco once the first wave of the flu subsided. People flocked to the streets, and to large sporting events... being outdoors but in close contact with many people caused a massive flare-up in the Spanish Flu within the city of San Francisco and the surrounding communities. Within a matter of a few weeks San Francisco was the nation's hot spot for flu deaths.

 

[Derrel]

Natural light, fresh air could keep coronavirus out of workplaces, scientists suggest
https://msystems.asm.org/content/5/2/e00245-20

No.No,no; Not scientists plural, but rather _ one_scientist, and he just makes a suggestion. It is also reported by Fox News , which is not a reputable source in my opinion and in the opinion of hundreds of thousands of other people who are knowledgeable about the field of Journalism.

The headline has a flawed, untrue claim in it, the idea that "scientists", as a group, have looked at this idea and proved it, is false. These are the ruminations of _one_ person who calls himself a scientist. It takes more than one crackpot practitioner to convince me or any other well-read person.

His "suggestion" is not proven, and it is similar to any claim or suggestion made by one, single individual without peer review. I might suggest something, but if 1,000 professionals within a field agree or have proof that is something else.

And once again, something reported on the web, from Fox News, is not exactly what I would call a proven anything. A couple of weeks ago two doc in a box ( urgent care clinic) doctors from California put out a bullshit video about how widespread the coronavirus was in their surrounding Community. Within 3 days their wild claims had been widely discredited by medical professionals from across the world.

 

[Soocom1]

My opinion and my OPINION ALONE!!!!!


The sunlight (actually UV light) has merit to it.
Always has.
Books and written stories of times past long before the days of a medical system talked long and hard of the benefits of sun and open air.
Vitruvius wrote in the Ten Books of Architecture (2000 years ago) that city and population planning revolved around the working with the natural elements.
This included understanding wind patterns, north-south sun exposure, east-west wind patterns, etc.
The long and short of it was that he was planning cities around the idea of working WITH nature rather than conquering it.
The end result was as it was recorded successful settlements.
The long and short is this. We still have much to learn of the world and its ills and wills. This will pass and in several years will be.."do you remember when.."

The only thing that I think is the larger take away is that the pattern of these events follow similar patterns and in our ignorance and arrogance keep forgetting to respect nature.

 

[Derrel]

Crystals. Pyramid power. Sage. Smudging.
Incense. Mantras.Secret societies. Bloodletting. Virgin Sacrifices. Animal Sacrifices. Crosses. Silver bullets. Wooden stakes. All were/are hailed as cures and remedies for a number of bad things.

 

[Derrel]

In this age of social media and the internet, almost anyone can publish an article or book and within a year, establish a number of on-line sites which "prove" the validity of their claim(s).

Let's use the often-repeated claim that in the late 19th century, the pitbull dog breed was widely considered to be a nanny dog in the United Kingdom and in Europe. If you do about 10 minutes' worth of online research you will find dozens and dozens of quotes and a couple of photographs showing small children posing with pitbull dogs from the 1890s era. The claim sounds good, especially when it is backed up with photographic evidence from the time. However the actual fact is demonstrated in this photo from the modern era

Every year since 1973, more people in North America have been killed by pitbull dogs than by bear attacks....this includes Canada, the USA, and Mexico. The breed is estimated to account for fewer than 17 percent of all dogs in the USA, and yet it is consistently number one in terms of death of people, livestock, poultry and waterfowl, and other dogs and pets. The breed was bred for fighting, and it excells at killing. And yet if you go online you will find pitbull owners talking about how wonderful their dogs are. About a month ago a friend of mine had her 25 year old daughter bit in the face by her 27 year old daughter's pitbull dog, which had bitten three other people before this tragedy occurred. And yet online you can find all sorts of articles that "prove" that it is "not the dog breed" but rather the "people that own the dogs". I would have to say the owner of this pitbull that bit my friend's 25 year old daughter (in the face!,) is a wonderful young woman.

 

[SquarePeg]

My nana always advocated the sunlight theory - she called it “Irish penicillin”. While I think fresh air and sunshine are good for whatever ails you, I don’t think they’re a cure for anything serious.

I didn’t read the article, just the comments. Medium “articles” get a lot of play in social media on both sides of many issues I won’t click to their site. Misleading titles, unvetted sources, bad bad writing in many cases...

 

[limr]

So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is.

And yet, if someone spent a lot of time sitting in the sun and then found that they were feeling better, they might then believe that it's the sunlight itself that is healing the ailments, even though it isn't. It may be one way to address the deficiency, but there are other sources of Vitamin D.

It's like Derrel said - correlation is not causation. The observable action might point to sunlight when in reality it's actually something else that is driving the cure to the disease.

It's like how people think that they catch colds in the winter because of cold temperatures or wet hair, when it actually has to do with people spending more time indoors in dry air, which creates perfect conditions in people's nasal passages for virus or bacteria, and being in closer proximity to other people for prolonged spans of time, which increases exposure by a LOT.

 

[tirediron]

So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is.

And yet, if someone spent a lot of time sitting in the sun and then found that they were feeling better, they might then believe that it's the sunlight itself that is healing the ailments, even though it isn't. It may be one way to address the deficiency, but there are other sources of Vitamin D...

But, if something provides relief from a malady, is that not a cure? Granted, it is the increased Vitamin D which is correcting the condition(s), but if the person weren't sitting in the sunlight, and thereby increasing their Vitamin D levels, they would still have the conditions... I think it's reasonable (and accurate) to say that in your example, the sunlight is causing the cure. Of course there are other ways to increase your Vitamin D, but does methodology matter?

 

[limr]

So let's say a person is suffering from ailments that actually are rooted in a Vitamin D deficiency. Sunlight exposure boosts a person's Vitamin D levels. But the sunlight itself isn't curing anything; the rise in Vitamin D is.

And yet, if someone spent a lot of time sitting in the sun and then found that they were feeling better, they might then believe that it's the sunlight itself that is healing the ailments, even though it isn't. It may be one way to address the deficiency, but there are other sources of Vitamin D...

But, if something provides relief from a malady, is that not a cure? Granted, it is the increased Vitamin D which is correcting the condition(s), but if the person weren't sitting in the sunlight, and thereby increasing their Vitamin D levels, they would still have the conditions... I think it's reasonable (and accurate) to say that in your example, the sunlight is causing the cure. Of course there are other ways to increase your Vitamin D, but does methodology matter?

Yes, it does matter. Sunlight itself is not the cure. It's one of the things that is delivering the actual cure. It's like saying the syringe is the cure instead of the medicine inside. It's a delivery mechanism, not the medicine itself.