LR Discussion Continued

[smoke665]

Interesting discussion, but it is all a moot point if you can get what you want from the program you have

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^

That makes zero sense. What's Adobe's problem?

I've never commented negatively on C1, despite the negative reviews I've read concerning lack of documentation from satisfied users, the lack of presets/3rd party plug ins, and the substantially increased pricing despite few real upgrades, especially in AI. As of the latest report I saw CC has over 33 million users and somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 employees. The only information I could get on C1 was over 260,000 users and 200 employees. Course I'm a die hard Pentax user, so you'd think I'd be drawn to C1, but the truth is CC despite it's flaws remains the most used editing program out there, and the most cost effective package. I've never had a problem with the raster editing in PS and like the other 33 million out there, I've always found it to suit my needs, plus the tech support I've had to use occasionally has been outstanding. I don't have any experience with C1 but I know from experience Nvidia works extremely close with Adobe, such that everytime a new update comes out there's a new driver update ready and waiting.

As to the first question posed "Something LR can't do", it's been answered, and accepted in your post above "Arguably if all you're trying to do is shift the color of the sky you're going to do that visually and it isn't going to matter. So LR accomplishes that task well enough." Beyond that your complaint isn't really a complaint that most users are concerned with. Depending on the accuracy of the colors is more important than comparing them between a Raw and a JPEG edit.

In your post 19 above the first image is (I assume an adjustment made to the Raw file), however it's incorrect when compared to the ColorChecker. The value for true Black should be RGB 0.0.0 but your file shows this when sampled, that's a long way from Black.

Your first Gray square up from Black reads this. According to ColorChecker it should be RGB 82.82.82 closer but still off

The next Gray square up reads this. It should be RGB 124.124.124 for what ever reason, this one is the only one actually close to what it should read, but the real discrepancy come in with the white next

Pure White should be reading RGB 255.255.255, again it's way off.

As White and Black are both used in tints and tones, this affects all the colors.

As to your question on why Adobe does what it does on setting Temperatures I've posed that question to Adobe, when I receive and answer I'll be back

 

[Ysarex]

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^


I've never commented negatively on C1, despite the negative reviews I've read concerning lack of documentation from satisfied users, the lack of presets/3rd party plug ins, and the substantially increased pricing despite few real upgrades, especially in AI. As of the latest report I saw CC has over 33 million users and somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 employees. The only information I could get on C1 was over 260,000 users and 200 employees. Course I'm a die hard Pentax user, so you'd think I'd be drawn to C1, but the truth is CC despite it's flaws remains the most used editing program out there, and the most cost effective package. I've never had a problem with the raster editing in PS and like the other 33 million out there, I've always found it to suit my needs, plus the tech support I've had to use occasionally has been outstanding. I don't have any experience with C1 but I know from experience Nvidia works extremely close with Adobe, such that everytime a new update comes out there's a new driver update ready and waiting.

As to the first question posed "Something LR can't do", it's been answered, and accepted in your post above "Arguably if all you're trying to do is shift the color of the sky you're going to do that visually and it isn't going to matter. So LR accomplishes that task well enough." Beyond that your complaint isn't really a complaint that most users are concerned with. Depending on the accuracy of the colors is more important than comparing them between a Raw and a JPEG edit.

My original statement makes no mention of JPEGs edited or otherwise. I'm talking only about raw files. To repeat:

What I originally said that you quoted above is that C1 allowed me to "...set a different WB for only the shadows (something LR can't do by the way)."
To repeat again: Simple fact: In a raw file that deliberately has a WB set for effect -- say very cool -- such that the greyscale of a colorchecker shows non-neutral cool grey patches it's not possible with ACR/LR to mask the colorchecker, and then use the temp/tint sliders to set the greyscale neutral and get close to correct color patches in the color checker. NOTE: This has been demonstrated above.

No mention of JPEGs there.

The reason Adobe renders the masked colorchecker with severely incorrect color patches is because the global WB for that raw file has already been set and in the masked area of the raw file adjustments are made relative to that set global WB in the raw file. I did find an external source "The Lightroom Queen" forum that makes the same point: "The global color temperature of the image has been set previously. The local adjustment brush will only give you relative adjustment from the value of the pixels being affected." Set actual value of temperature in local adjustment preset

C1 can avoid this potential problem. Adobe has it engineered in.

All that follows is meaningless. I made no effort to process that raw file in either ACR or C1 to any degree beyond opening the file with either app's defaults and setting the WB and/or setting the WB then masking the colorchecker and adjusting the masked area. I went straight from there to export the image. Of course both apps and their default settings (camera profiles applied, etc.) did not render values in the colorchecker that exactly match the colorchecker actual values. It would have been miraculous if they had. NOTE: This in no way invalidates the test results which is why I didn't bother. The same process done in C1 (new WB multipliers applied) rendered two identical colorcheckers whereas using ACR the two colorcheckers show severe differences indicating that the LR guru in The Lightroom Queen forum is correct in drawing the same conclusion I have: "The global color temperature of the image has been set previously. The local adjustment brush will only give you relative adjustment from the value of the pixels being affected."

My original statement remains accurate. C1 can set new WB multipliers for a masked area while processing a raw file. Adobe can't.

In your post 19 above the first image is (I assume an adjustment made to the Raw file), however it's incorrect when compared to the ColorChecker.
The value for true Black should be RGB 0.0.0 but your file shows this when sampled, that's a long way from Black.
View attachment 277735
Your first Gray square up from Black reads this. According to ColorChecker it should be RGB 82.82.82 closer but still off
View attachment 277736
The next Gray square up reads this. It should be RGB 124.124.124 for what ever reason, this one is the only one actually close to what it should read, but the real discrepancy come in with the white next
View attachment 277737
Pure White should be reading RGB 255.255.255, again it's way off.
View attachment 277738
As White and Black are both used in tints and tones, this affects all the colors.

As to your question on why Adobe does what it does on setting Temperatures I've posed that question to Adobe, when I receive and answer I'll be back

 

[smoke665]

Okay @Ysarex After 3 pages of requesting backup documentation on your statement from the first post "C1 also uses a layer model. The two changes I made to that file were to open an already existing layer that contained a mask for the sky and I decided to darken the sky a little more. The big change was to create a new luminosity layer for the shadow area of the image and set a different WB for only the shadows" I did what I asked you to do from the start....show me outside verification to support your statement, something that could have resolved this on the first page.

I just received the following from Adobe Community Support "WB is set in the Basic Panel with an indication of Kelvin degrees. This is a Global setting. In the Masking panel you are only changing the 'Amount' -100+100 of the global set WB where it is not referrered to as WB but instead 'Color'. Local adjustments in a mask, with the temperature slider when you have selected an RGB file is a targeted adjustment to the underlying color coordinates"

From C1's website "From Capture One Pro 8 on it is now possible to change the White Balance in a Local Adjustments layer". I did find on C1's site that they "deal with colors in two ways: internally and for output," all editing is done in "a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors". "At the end of the workflow, the RAW data has to be processed to pixel-based image files, in defined color spaces, Adobe RGB" I didn't find any outside corroboration on whether this was any better or worse than Adobe....possibly due to the lack of a large number of users.

Back to something I said earlier, C1 is working in an open color space, and converting to RGB at the end, Adobe starts with RGB. According to Adobe's Eric Chan - "ACR's white balance controls have two sliders, one is called color temperature and the other is Tint. The first
controls the Blue/Yellow balance and Tint controls the Green/Magenta balance. If you add in the Exposure control black to white scale, it starts to look very similar to the LAB color model (L = luminance; A is the yellow/blue axis; and B is the Magenta/Green)" If you'll recall I mentioned way back in one of the pages, that WB adjustments should be made "after" exposure adjustments.

Something else I was reminded of in my research, was that the Temperature slider colors in Basic Panel are reversed from the temperature colors on the Kelvin Scale ( warm is low/blue high). I remember originally this caused a lot of confusion on my part, until I wrapped my brain around the fact that the slider in ACR is not a temperature scale but a "correction" slider (=+/-100). In other words it requires an opposite correction to the underlying image IE: the slider starts out in the center, type in 9500 K the slider moves to the left (blue cool), type in 2000k it move to the right (red warm). Also,the further from center you go to one side or the other, you'll find in a mask adjustment that even though the temperature slider will show up to +/- 100 adjustment being available, the actual adjustment will be progressively less based on the temperature set in the Basic Pane.

As always, Joe, discussions with you can be interesting, and they generally force me to read....a lot, thereby increasing my knowledge, but it's time to put the Mules in the barn. So to put this to rest, you are technically correct on the term WB, but I still stand by my earlier statement. In the end, "It doesn't mean diddly to me if you call it WB, tone mapping, or magic", I'm perfectly happy and satisfied to be among the 33 million users who like and use Adobe CC on a regular basis.

 

[Ysarex]

Okay @Ysarex After 3 pages of requesting backup documentation on your statement from the first post "C1 also uses a layer model. The two changes I made to that file were to open an already existing layer that contained a mask for the sky and I decided to darken the sky a little more. The big change was to create a new luminosity layer for the shadow area of the image and set a different WB for only the shadows" I did what I asked you to do from the start....show me outside verification to support your statement, something that could have resolved this on the first page.

I found this which corroborated what I knew Adobe was doing: Set actual value of temperature in local adjustment preset

I just received the following from Adobe Community Support "WB is set in the Basic Panel with an indication of Kelvin degrees. This is a Global setting. In the Masking panel you are only changing the 'Amount' -100+100 of the global set WB where it is not referrered to as WB but instead 'Color'. Local adjustments in a mask, with the temperature slider when you have selected an RGB file is a targeted adjustment to the underlying color coordinates"

I don't find that adequately clear. WB multipliers are set in the Basic Panel and unless the user changes them that's it. They are applied and any further changes to the color/tone of the image is done on top of that globally set WB. Adjustments in the masking panel don't alter those original WB multipliers in any way, they alter the RGB colors those WB multipliers generated.

Adobe is in good company as that's basically how all the raw processors function with the exception of C1, I believe. I am not aware that any other raw processor permits a masked area of a raw file to have a new/second set of WB multipliers applied. The newest release of Darktable may be the 2nd exception but I need to investigate that further.

From C1's website "From Capture One Pro 8 on it is now possible to change the White Balance in a Local Adjustments layer". I did find on C1's site that they "deal with colors in two ways: internally and for output," all editing is done in "a very large color space, similar to that captured by camera sensors". "At the end of the workflow, the RAW data has to be processed to pixel-based image files, in defined color spaces, Adobe RGB" I didn't find any outside corroboration on whether this was any better or worse than Adobe....possibly due to the lack of a large number of users.

Back to something I said earlier, C1 is working in an open color space, and converting to RGB at the end, Adobe starts with RGB. According to Adobe's Eric Chan - "ACR's white balance controls have two sliders, one is called color temperature and the other is Tint. The first
controls the Blue/Yellow balance and Tint controls the Green/Magenta balance. If you add in the Exposure control black to white scale, it starts to look very similar to the LAB color model (L = luminance; A is the yellow/blue axis; and B is the Magenta/Green)" If you'll recall I mentioned way back in one of the pages, that WB adjustments should be made "after" exposure adjustments.

The application of WB multipliers will typically alter the brightness of an image.

Something else I was reminded of in my research, was that the Temperature slider colors in Basic Panel are reversed from the temperature colors on the Kelvin Scale ( warm is low/blue high). I remember originally this caused a lot of confusion on my part, until I wrapped my brain around the fact that the slider in ACR is not a temperature scale but a "correction" slider (=+/-100). In other words it requires an opposite correction to the underlying image IE: the slider starts out in the center, type in 9500 K the slider moves to the left (blue cool), type in 2000k it move to the right (red warm). Also,the further from center you go to one side or the other, you'll find in a mask adjustment that even though the temperature slider will show up to +/- 100 adjustment being available, the actual adjustment will be progressively less based on the temperature set in the Basic Pane.

As always, Joe, discussions with you can be interesting, and they generally force me to read....a lot, thereby increasing my knowledge, but it's time to put the Mules in the barn. So to put this to rest, you are technically correct on the term WB, but I still stand by my earlier statement. In the end, "It doesn't mean diddly to me if you call it WB, tone mapping, or magic", I'm perfectly happy and satisfied to be among the 33 million users who like and use Adobe CC on a regular basis.

I agreed it's a subtle difference and not meaningful for most folks and their requirements. You started the thread.

 

[smoke665]

I don't find that adequately clear. WB multipliers are set in the Basic Panel and unless the user changes them that's it

Goes back to the argument over definition. This is from Adobe by the way, as I said earlier they have some excellent customer service.

They are applied and any further changes to the color/tone of the image is done on top of that globally set WB

I couldn't find confirmation on it, but I suspect it has more to do with Adobe using an RGB color space from the start vs the open space used by C1 until the editing is done.

You started the thread

Yup......Our state animal. I'm the oldest so I'm in front. We did accumulate almost 4 pages and over 400 views.....and we were the only two commenting, except for Granpa Ron. We might have set a forum record.