Encouragement to shoot raw

[Ysarex]

Micro transitions ARE what makes a portrait, especially those shot close, and the letter edges I was referring to are those used in graphic arts, not something shot from far away, 9 years as a newspaper publisher and commercial printer, so yes it makes a difference.

No, what makes a portrait is the expression of emotion and apparent human connection between the photographer and subject. Micro contrast transitions matter and you get overkill on that in a 16 bit digital image and it's adjustable and it's locally adjustable which it is not in a darkroom print. Any character difference in micro contrast between film and digital isn't visible in a print. You can't see demosaicing artifacts in a digital print.

Luminance is the objective, numerical measurement in lumens over a certain area, "Brightness" however is a a measure of the total amount of perceived light in an image. So comparison of the "contrast" based on visual observation to one person could vary considerably from one person to another.

Informally luminance and brightness are used interchangeably, but sure, what is an objective fact here is that a silver analog print has less of a mesurable luminance range dark to white than an inkjet print. A silver print can't reach the DMAX possible with an inkjet print.

 

[21limited]

I’d love to see one of your curves illustrating that point.
I know comparing print media, silver is better, and assumed that it would be true with ink printers, but I’ve seen no evidence one way or the other. MY memory is high contrast prints achieveing 160:1 and paper being being 120:1 magazine, 60:1 news paper.

But that was before ink jets, so badly out of date and possibly no longer relevant. However factors I’d consider.
1. The reflectivity of the paper (media) used.
Comparison of like to like, as in slides compared to computer and TV screes, and colour print compared to colour print, black and white compared to black and white.

 

[Don Fischer]

Wouldn't expect you to. LOL However in simple terms, a digital data file and a fim negative aren't the same in terms of information contained. While film might be non-linear in terms of response to light in the shadows and highlights the transition from one to the other contains a greater level of micro transition from one to another. In a digital file demosaicing algorithms use the spatial correlation of pixels to assume similar values within a small region of an image. Information between the pixels may or may not be exactly the same or may be discarded entirely. Not only does it show up in the micro transitions but is highly visible where you have sharp transitions on things like lettering or drawings. Digital images of these typically have a loss of resolution and edge artifacts.


Define your definition of contrast

All this science stuff turns me off. I didn't know my B&W's were really color till someone on here told me so. In pursuit of perfection the enjoyment of photography could be lost. How much fun is taking photo's only to find out some super brain say's they are not up to snuff. The most important person to like your photo's is you! Getting over my junk B&W now. I guess one person opinion is in their mind and I'm free to form my own!

 

[Grandpa Ron]

All of the above opinions shape the reasons why some people choose to use a particular type, make, and model printer. However, I think you will find most photo hobbyist, survey the pro and cons of the printers available, and buy the best they can afford.

There is no doubt that most printing methods, film or digital can be tweaked to meet the tastes of the individual. But this soon reaches diminishing returns, and over time you lock in on your favorite settings and go with them.

 

[Ysarex]

I’d love to see one of your curves illustrating that point.
I know comparing print media, silver is better, and assumed that it would be true with ink printers, but I’ve seen no evidence one way or the other. MY memory is high contrast prints achieveing 160:1 and paper being being 120:1 magazine, 60:1 news paper.

You have to use the right paper and inks otherwise there's lots of variation in inkjet results. From a google search on "DMAX compared silver print inkjet print" this comes up: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4733330 One comment in that thread, "Piezography inks give an exceptionally high dmax on good quality papers ... beyond silver prints..."

But that was before ink jets, so badly out of date and possibly no longer relevant. However factors I’d consider.
1. The reflectivity of the paper (media) used.
Comparison of like to like, as in slides compared to computer and TV screes, and colour print compared to colour print, black and white compared to black and white.

 

[21limited]

Unless they are going to tell us what paper and what inks, I’m not sure that’s of any use, but thanks. I’ll explore further.

 

[Ysarex]

Unless they are going to tell us what paper and what inks, I’m not sure that’s of any use, but thanks. I’ll explore further.

Bottom line is we can formulate an ink that's blacker than the black produced in a silver print. If you think about it that makes sense. Piezography inks, Epson pigment inks and then Museo and Hahnemühle class papers and you exceed the DMAX of a silver print.

 

[smoke665]

Any character difference in micro contrast between film and digital isn't visible in a print.

Having been drawn to portraiture rather than random snapshots for the last 50+ years, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Informally luminance and brightness are used interchangeably

Perpetuating a false misstatement of fact doesn't make it right. "Luminosity" is an absolute measure of radiated electromagnetic energy. "Brightness" on the other hand is the subjective human perception of the intensity of light. While "Brightness" is vague, a more subjective measurement would be to test the Light Reflectance Value (LRV), which measures how much visible and usable light a surface reflects when illuminated, depending on the surface and the intensity of the light striking the surface. Dean Collins developed his chromazone methods of lighting based on this, a method I've followed for years.

Actually spent some time researching analog vs ink jet and was not able to find any objective technical information that would verify your claims. I found a lot of subjective opinions that said similar things, however but opinions are like noses, and in the absence of verification one is neither better or worse, just different.

I also believe you're failing to consider, that in order to achieve the results you claim, you're likely exceeding the capabilities of the typical consumer ink jet printer and supplies used. As pointed out above, most buy what they can afford, so in that scenario a properly exposed negative printed by a reputable lab will exceed the results of a low end consumer printer.

 

[21limited]

As pointed out above, most buy what they can afford, so in that scenario a properly exposed negative printed by a reputable lab will exceed the results of a low end consumer printer.

So, a few inks and papers “can” do better. I have no access to those inks or printers. A guy once told me you could see hte difference between 600 dpi and 300 dpi, but he also couldn’t tell me where I could fin somone who would print my images at 600 dpi. I owuld have tried on just to see if he was rigtht. I feel the same about this information. If I can’t check to see if it’s right, it’s not relevant information. That becasue sometimes technically measurable effects are not visible to the eye. I don’t want to read about it, I want to see it.

Print Tips: Using "Enriched" Black Ink: Custom Printing Company in Des Moines IA | Purcell Printing & Signs

When we think of colors, we often think of many different shades of each primary color. Take blue for example...it can vary between colors such as baby blue, aqua, turquoise,

www.purcellprinting.com

TF, note the downsides of blakc black ink. It’s not all good.

 

[Ysarex]

Having been drawn to portraiture rather than random snapshots for the last 50+ years, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


Perpetuating a false misstatement of fact doesn't make it right. "Luminosity" is an absolute measure of radiated electromagnetic energy. "Brightness" on the other hand is the subjective human perception of the intensity of light. While "Brightness" is vague, a more subjective measurement would be to test the Light Reflectance Value (LRV), which measures how much visible and usable light a surface reflects when illuminated, depending on the surface and the intensity of the light striking the surface. Dean Collins developed his chromazone methods of lighting based on this, a method I've followed for years.

Actually spent some time researching analog vs ink jet and was not able to find any objective technical information that would verify your claims. I found a lot of subjective opinions that said similar things, however but opinions are like noses, and in the absence of verification one is neither better or worse, just different.

I also believe you're failing to consider, that in order to achieve the results you claim, you're likely exceeding the capabilities of the typical consumer ink jet printer and supplies used.

I'm not failing to consider it, yes of course I'm not talking about the consumer oriented products, I'm talking about the high end multi-grey/black ink printers like Epson & Piezography and the fine art papers.

As pointed out above, most buy what they can afford, so in that scenario a properly exposed negative printed by a reputable lab will exceed the results of a low end consumer printer.

 

[Ysarex]

So, a few inks and papers “can” do better.

Yes.

I have no access to those inks or printers.

You do if you want it -- easier to get than a darkroom.

A guy once told me you could see hte difference between 600 dpi and 300 dpi, but he also couldn’t tell me where I could fin somone who would print my images at 600 dpi. I owuld have tried on just to see if he was rigtht. I feel the same about this information. If I can’t check to see if it’s right, it’s not relevant information. That becasue sometimes technically measurable effects are not visible to the eye. I don’t want to read about it, I want to see it.

Print Tips: Using "Enriched" Black Ink: Custom Printing Company in Des Moines IA | Purcell Printing & Signs

When we think of colors, we often think of many different shades of each primary color. Take blue for example...it can vary between colors such as baby blue, aqua, turquoise,

www.purcellprinting.com

TF, note the downsides of blakc black ink. It’s not all good.