Is there such a thing as large format roll film? 4x5 or 8x10 or other standard sizes

[Gavjenks]

"It hasn't been done often" is not itself a reason why it is impractical.

If it was practical why was it not be done more often in the 130 year history of roll film.

Because it's probably impractical for the average/typical usage case and average/typical motivations.

Which, again, may not be the same as my motivations or usage. Large companies manufacturing consumer goods don't cater to weird gizmo tinkerers or people who want to use their cameras for strange experiments. For the vast majority of photography history, LF camera makers would have been catering to basically landscape and portrait professionals, and that's about it. Nowadays it's probably still almost all portrait and landscape professionals, although more niches and artistic uses, and what "landscape" means of course will have crept in, percentage wise.

This does not match my profile very well. I'm not looking for the most efficient solution in terms of investment and profit for selling images to the public to hang on their walls. So the actions of an industry that HAS been focused on that do not necessarily apply to me. Things like pure investment return, streamlined workflow, etc.

 

[Gavjenks]

For example, it might just so happen that, let's say, a camera with a roll system is about 50% more expensive to make with the additional moving parts, etc. And maybe it could be made 300% faster to reload the next shot.

For your typical landscape/portrait shooter, 300% faster shot reload is fairly MEANINGLESS. If you took 3 hours to hike to some location and set up for one particular shot, then why do you care if you can take another shot in 3 seconds versus 10 seconds? You don't, so of course, you wouldn't be willing to pay 50% more for your camera.

But that doesn't necessarily make it objectively more impractical! It could potentially weigh just as much and work just as flawlessly, etc. It could, theoretically, be equally or more physically practical in EVERY way. Yet people still wouldn't buy it and it wouldn't live on in history, simply because the cost wouldn't be justified.


Greatest market popularity does not necessarily = highest performance. Same reason why we don't all own 1DX's

 

[Josh66]

Same reason why we don't all own 1DX's

There may also be a few other factors...


Also, I don't think you can really say that more moving parts = more expensive camera. There's no reason this imaginary camera has to cost 50% more. The most expensive camera I own is also the most basic one, with the fewest features.

 

[unpopular]

... or you could use proven, existing technology that works just fine and accomplishes all the things you want to more reliably, with fewer moving parts and less weight.

 

[Gavjenks]

fewer moving parts

Yes, but if done well, this isn't necessarily a problem for usage, so much as for design effort. But design is fun for me, so I can't really count it as a cost.

and less weight.

Speculative/why? At 1 lb. each per side/sheet for a typical 8x10 holder, the holders already outweigh an aluminum roll system and the larger camera to house it at about 3-4 shots.

Grafmatic type solution is niftier, but is apparently not very much lighter than the equivalent number of normal holders in actual practice.

There may also be a few other factors...

Quite possibly! But since half a dozen people don't seem to be able to name many of them specifically, I'm doubting a little bit that there are.

Other than the well-rehashed stiffness (getting it to roll, getting it to lie flat later)
And alleged weight. However, doing the math in multiple ways, the holders for equivalent number of shots always end up adding up to multiple times more weight than this. For 4x5 or 8x10.

These are literally the only two concerns that I can find that have been mentioned that actually might apply to rollfilm in general versus sheet film, and not just one particular plan of mine versus some other possible plan. I just flipped back through all the pages and didn't see any others. May have missed one, lemme know if so. Most of the rest of the comments are (admittedly amusing) snide comments, suggestions to go buy commercial products which is just not something I'm interested in, helpful tips, or links to multiple past LF rollfilm solutions by others.



Edit: Oh also the annoyance of having to cut a roll up if you want to process sheets individually. Fair enough, and a legitimate difference, but fairly trivial. A paper cutter makes short work of even a massive roll in minutes.

 

[Josh66]

Edit: Oh also the annoyance of having to cut a roll up if you want to process sheets individually. Fair enough, and a legitimate difference, but fairly trivial. A paper cutter makes short work of even a massive roll in minutes.

Good luck guessing where one frame stops and the next starts, prior to developing, and in the dark.

 

[vintagesnaps]

It seems like 35mm film must advance the same amount each time due to the sprocket holes. I wonder if 120 advances the same length of film each exposure or gradually increases as it winds around the spool (since you're using the numbers on the paper backing to determine when it's advanced the right distance)? I don't know if you could tell without exposing a roll of film - you could measure the film with the back of the camera open I suppose from one number to the next and see if they're the same distance apart.

The thought had crossed my mind too that since sheet film has been used since early in photography that sometime someone must have thought of trying roll film... I would expect rolling large sheets of film wound that tightly would cause curling that would make it more difficult to work with than having it in a sheet format. I've had 35mm film developed and uncut (like when I did pinhole shots) and it curls like the dickens and takes some doing to keep it flat - I would think larger film in a long roll would be that much harder to use, or that large sheets of film that have been wound in a roll for any length of time would be hard to work with.

 

[Gavjenks]

Good luck guessing where one frame stops and the next starts, prior to developing, and in the dark.

This is actually the main reason why i originally thought of having a roll of polyester to attach them to. Not so much to be cheap, but to be able to precisely measure things in the daylight and punch tactile guide marks in the polyester at the right locations (much like the perforated tactile indicator on a piece of sheet film to tell you which way it goes).

1) Run finger along edge of polyester roll until feel prepunched bump.
2) Push until it lines up with a screw head that indicates the line of the paper cutter.
3) Move hands out of the way and cut with paper cutter.Sh

Should be accurate to a millimeter or three, and doable at a pace of 10 seconds a sheet or so.




I also want to be able to precisely measure out the geometric spacing so as not to have to build a crazy ratchet transmission sprocket system thing. Punch holes also would indicate this spacing in the dark.

 

[Light Guru]

I'm guessing Gav is the type of guy that would spend 500 hours making a 50 step rube goldberg machine just to turn on a light switch.

If you want to make your life more difficult then go for it.

And remember this is coming from a guy who uses a large format camera as his primary camera. Large format photography is a lot of work already, and you are taking it to a whole new level of difficulty, the contraption want want to build and especially your desire to attach individual sheets of large format film to something else just so you can roll it up just gives so many opera unites for things to go wrong.

 

[Gavjenks]

I quite admit the rolling on top of another thing may not be the most brilliant idea. But still going to give it a try with my test sheets. It does solve a lot of issues on the off chance it works.

 

[Mike_E]

This thread is fun.

As far as film flatness goes if you could find some really good (read that as in best filter type) glass you could use the back of that as your basis for the film plane and simply clamp the film to the glass from the back with a plate after you've gotten the film advanced.

You'd also be doing yourself a favor if you incorporated a way to cut and remove the exposed film in case you didn't want to shoot the whole roll. You'd then have to figure a way to reattach the unused portion to your take-up spool.

 

[amolitor]

To prototype this thing, I'd probably just build the rolling mechanism, and focus using an external device. Like, measuring the lens to film plane distance accurately, or a rangefinder.

Building something that lets me see through the thing to a ground glass, and then mechanically moves a bunch of just around to bring the film into the same plane, seems to be a separate problem from the rolling device. One problem at a time, I say.

On the other hand, the point is to have fun, so why not just throw stuff up there? WOO!

Here's a whacky idea for you:

Your substrate that you're fastening these sheets of film to? Get some of that thin magnetized crap they use for fridge magnets, and fasten an array of strips of that material to the back. Then make your pressure plate out of of steel. Easy to machine it flat, and it'll hold your film down. Engineered right (which might include a permanent spacer-film to get the right degree of stiction), your film should still slide laterally when you roll, but still lie flat. My first thought was an electromagnet, but I am pretty sure the flexible magnet material actually alternates polarity across the sheet, so that probably would not work.

You might actually get *better* film flatness with this gizmo, if you did that.

 

[table1349]

If you would like to have a better understaning of why there are people that insist on doing crazy things all we have to do is look to our primate cousins. The average person when they peel a banana grasps the stem and tears the banana open, or at least tries to tear it open. We all know that does not always work.

Now watch a primate with a banana. They turn it, to us humans, upside down and pinch the bottom. It always spitls open and they peel it from there with no difficulty. They never look to reienvent the wheel. They are just interested in food, rest and sex and not always in that order.


Tell me, who is the smarter creature in this equation?

 

[Gavjenks]

If you would like to have a better understaning of why there are people that insist on doing crazy things all we have to do is look to our primate cousins. The average person when they peel a banana grasps the stem and tears the banana open, or at least tries to tear it open. We all know that does not always work.

Now watch a primate with a banana. They turn it, to us humans, upside down and pinch the bottom. It always spitls open and they peel it from there with no difficulty. They never look to reienvent the wheel. They are just interested in food, rest and sex and not always in that order.


Tell me, who is the smarter creature in this equation?

You are leaving out the important detail that the monkey will probably throw that same banana at his friends after it has already been digested. Kind of throws a monkey wrench into the equation, one might even say...

 

[table1349]

If you would like to have a better understaning of why there are people that insist on doing crazy things all we have to do is look to our primate cousins. The average person when they peel a banana grasps the stem and tears the banana open, or at least tries to tear it open. We all know that does not always work.

Now watch a primate with a banana. They turn it, to us humans, upside down and pinch the bottom. It always spitls open and they peel it from there with no difficulty. They never look to reienvent the wheel. They are just interested in food, rest and sex and not always in that order.


Tell me, who is the smarter creature in this equation?

You are leaving out the important detail that the monkey will probably throw that same banana at his friends after it has already been digested. Kind of throws a monkey wrench into the equation, one might even say...

Major Wars and Conflicts

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Date(s)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Egyptian Invasion of Asia[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1479 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Persia Empire Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]546 - 539 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Persian-Greek Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]499 - 401 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Peloponnesian Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]460 - 404 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Greek City-States Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]395 - 362 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Alexander & Macedonian Conquests[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]338 - 322 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hellenistic Monarchies, Wars of the [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]318 - 170 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Punic War, First[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]264 - 241 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Punic War, Second[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]219 - 202 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Invasion of the Hsiung-nu[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]203 - 200 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Third Macedonian War[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]168 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Punic War, Third [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]149 - 146 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Gallic Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]58 - 52 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]First Triumvirate, Wars of the[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]53 - 45 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Second Triumvirate, Wars of the[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]43 - 31 bc[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Roman Empire Wars[/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]27 bc - 476 ad[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Byzantine Empire Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]395 - 1453[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Muslim Conquests [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]624 - 982[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Charlemagne, Conquests of [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]773 - 796[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]German States, Wars of the [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]891 - 1789[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Norman Conquest of England [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1066[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Crusades [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1096 - 1254[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]English-French Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1194 - 1337[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Mongol Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1214 - 1402[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]English Scottish Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1314[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hundred Years War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1337 - 1453[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Venetian-Turkish Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1416 - 1573[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Wars of the Roses [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1455 - 1487[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Spanish-Moslem Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1481 - 1492[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Spanish Conquest of Mexico [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1519 - 1521[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Mogul-Afghan War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1526[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Spanish Conquest of Peru [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1531 - 1533[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]English Spanish Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1588[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Thirty Years' War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1618 - 1648[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]English Civil Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1642 - 1651[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Spanish-French Wars [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1648 - 1659[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Jacobite Rebellions [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1689 - 1745[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Indian Wars in United States [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1811 - 1887[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]War of 1812 [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1812 - 1815[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Peruvian War of Independence [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1824[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Texan War of Independence [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1836[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Afghan-British War, First [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1839 - 1842[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Mexican War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1846 - 1847[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]American Civil War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1861 - 1865[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Seven Weeks' War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1866[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Franco-Prussian War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1870 - 1871[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Afghan-British War, Second [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1878 - 1880[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Zulu-British War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1879[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Sudan, War for the [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1881 - 1899[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Spanish-American War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1898[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Boer War, Second [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1899 - 1902[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Russo-Japanese War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1904 - 1905[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]World War I [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1914 - 1918[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Afghan-British War, Third [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1919[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Turkish War of Independence [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1919 - 1923[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]World War II [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1939 - 1945[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]French Indochina War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1946 - 1954[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Arab-Israeli War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1948 - 1949[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Korean War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1950 - 1953[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hungarian Uprising [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1956[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Vietnam War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1965 - 1975[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Six-Day War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1967[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]October War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1973[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Iran-Iraq War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1980 - 1988[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Persian Gulf War [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1991[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Terrorism, War on [/FONT]	[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]2001 - [/FONT]

Just to name a few of the more remembered wars.

Details aren't your strong suit. Not one of the above was started by primates. Humans throw more S#!+ around than all the primates that ever existed. Plus primates get over a little $#!+ slinging very quickly and all is good. Not something that can be said about humans now is it? :lmao: