File Question about Elements Digital Software

[Ysarex]

But let's say you have a master TIFF - regardless of where it came from - that has already been saved and closed. Editing THAT file will not continue to lose detail as you use the program, only when saving as a JPEG. Concur?

No. Let's say you have a master TIFF that was originally a camera JPEG that has already been saved and closed. Editing THAT file to alter color/tone will lose detail/data (be degraded) as you use the program regardless of how you then save the file. See example here: File Question about Elements Digital Software

 

[jadin]

No. Let's say you have a master TIFF that was originally a camera JPEG that has already been saved and closed. Editing THAT file to alter color/tone will lose detail/data as you use the program regardless of how you then save the file. See example here: File Question about Elements Digital Software

That makes no sense. Unless Tiff is using lossy compression, it won't change anymore.

In your example you show a jpeg, not a tiff.

So let's have you repeat your demonstration.

Open a lossy jpeg, save it as a tiff. Close all files. Close Elements.

Open the tiff. Do your color tone edit and save that as a new tiff. Compare those two tiffs. There should be no new degradation.

 

[Ysarex]

That makes no sense.

It makes complete sense.

Unless Tiff is using lossy compression, it won't change anymore.

Editing changes an image.

In your example you show a jpeg, not a tiff.

Makes no difference if the TIFF is saved from an original camera JPEG. The lossy compression applied to the camera JPEG is transferred to the TIFF.

So let's have you repeat your demonstration.

Only if you can't figure out the simple explanation above.

Open a lossy jpeg, save it as a tiff. Close all files. Close Elements.

Open the tiff. Do your color tone edit and save that as a new tiff. Compare those two tiffs. There should be no new degradation.

 

[jadin]

Editing changes an image.

Well sure. But not from compression. Which is the whole point of this thread.

Makes no difference if the TIFF is saved from an original camera JPEG. The lossy compression applied to the camera JPEG is transferred to the TIFF.

Yeah. We get that. Compression from the JPEG to the tiff has the original loss saved already. Nothing can be done about that. So that's why we need to see the tiff vs tiff with edit comparison.

Only if you can't figure out the simple explanation above.

Which I'm not. If you want to tell me what software you are using I can do it myself if you want. But I'd need to know what edits you made as well.

 

[jadin]

lol you even agreed with me already.

Editing, specifically changes to tone and color, is the primary cause of increased JPEG degradation and nothing can be done to prevent that except don't edit a JPEG.

 

[Ysarex]

Well sure. But not from compression.

Yes, from compression -- from lossy JPEG compression that was applied by the camera.

Which is the whole point of this thread.



Yeah. We get that.

Compression from the JPEG to the tiff has the original loss saved already. Nothing can be done about that.

So you then you should understand. Editing actions applied to the TIFF (saved from camera JPEG) interact with the lossy compression already there and cause much more severe degradation than you get from recompressing a JPEG as a JPEG.

So that's why we need to see the tiff vs tiff with edit comparison.

OK -- patience.

Camera JPEG opened and saved as 16 bit TIFF.
TIFF closed.
TIFF reopened and edited to alter sky tone and color.
The edit interacted with the original lossy compression grid from the camera JPEG and the image was degraded as a result.
Mottling noise is worse after the edit.
Example here saved as lossless PNG.

Which I'm not. If you want to tell me what software you are using I can do it myself if you want. But I'd need to know what edits you made as well.

 

[jadin]

They are the same. The artifacts are virtually identical if not identical.

In the second one, the artifacts literally flow into each other. No degradation.

Why? Because we're not editing a JPEG anymore. Only a master TIFF.

Let me know what edits you are using and / or post your results.

 

[jadin]

TIFF reopened and edited to alter sky tone and color.

So what were the settings on those edits?

 

[Ysarex]

Well sure. But not from compression.

Which is the whole point of this thread.



Yeah. We get that. Compression from the JPEG to the tiff has the original loss saved already. Nothing can be done about that. So that's why we need to see the tiff vs tiff with edit comparison.



Which I'm not. If you want to tell me what software you are using I can do it myself if you want. But I'd need to know what edits you made as well.

They are the same.

Not in my test they're not. Here's my original: _DSC4212.JPG

 

[Ysarex]

So what were the settings on those edits?

Did you read? File Question about Elements Digital Software I did the same thing I did in that post. Of course I got the same result because the TIFF had the same lossy compressed data. Did you start with a camera JPEG? What resolution?

 

[jadin]

Did you read? File Question about Elements Digital Software I did the same thing I did in that post. Of course I got the same result because the TIFF had the same lossy compressed data. Did you start with a camera JPEG? What resolution?

Uh, yes "I read". But you didn't answer the question. Did you hit auto-tone in both tests? Did you do a specific filter or adjustment? If so what percentages did you use? What were the _settings_?

My files are the exact same file as yours. _DSC4212.SR2 Opened, then saved as a TIFF. Closed the file. Opened the TIFF, and did any edits, and saved it as a new tiff to be able to compare.

So again - what exactly did you change? I can't replicate it without knowing what you did _exactly_.

 

[jadin]

Ugh. Can you send me the same JPEG you are using?

 

[Ysarex]

Uh, yes "I read". But you didn't answer the question. Did you hit auto-tone in both tests? Did you do a specific filter or adjustment? If so what percentages did you use? What were the _settings_?

My files are the exact same file as yours. _DSC4212.SR2 Opened, then saved as a TIFF. Closed the file. Opened the TIFF, and did any edits, and saved it as a new tiff to be able to compare.

_DSC4212.SR2 is a raw file and not a JPEG. You didn't have any lossy compression data to deal with in the first place if you started with a raw file.

So again - what exactly did you change? I can't replicate it without knowing what you did _exactly_.

I opened the JPEG and immediately saved it as a 16 bit TIFF. I closed the file. I reopened the TIFF file in Photoshop and used Levels and Hue-Saturation adjustment layers to change the hue, saturation and value of the sky -- darker, more saturated, and less cyan. Because of the original lossy compression from the camera, those edit changes caused mottling degradation in the sky.

 

[Ysarex]

Ugh. Can you send me the same JPEG you are using?

I already did. Oops fixed it.

 

[jadin]

Group,

If the JPEG file is a "loss type", then when you are using the various tools in say Elements, does your picture continue to lose detail as you use the program?

If so, then the only digital software tool to use would be the ones made for raw files?

Marc

But even if you are right, which you seem to be before I test myself - this is still true:

"Compression from the JPEG to the tiff has the original loss saved already. Nothing can be done about that."

Continuing to edit and have "further issues" is just extended results of the original compression. There's no NEW compression being done, so for Marc's question, as long as he gets out of JPEG right away (or skips JPEG completely if he has RAW files), then no, there is no continued degradation just from using the software. At least not in the sense people are referring to when they ask about lossy compression.