Time to Buy my first medium format camera!

[alexknudsen]

I have about $300 to spend, I just bought a film scanner for medium format

and I need my first medium format camera, I am totally new to medium format, but I really want to have the waist level viewfinder.

I am totally open to buying something beat up and old, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated

I am really into photographing portraits, and that is what I will mainly be doing


thanks:wink:

[Alpha]

Most important question: Do you need a meter in the camera?

[alexknudsen]

yes

[Alpha]

Your best option in that price range would be the 645 format, which would include for you something like the Mamiya 645E or the Pentax 645. A Mamiya 645 super could work but you'd be pushing the price by adding on a metering prism. It might be possible, on a good day, to find a Fuji 645 around that price.

Remember that most MF bodies are modular. That is, the prism where the meter is contained, the body, and the back, are separate. You could try looking at the 6x7 format, such as the Mamiya RB67, or the Bronica GS-1, but their metering prisms are very heavy, not usually cheap, and not that easy to find. I suggested the 645 format because they're easiest to find in affordable kits (lens, prism, body, back).

Look around KEH.com or ebay. Feel free to post any links you find, asking if it's a good deal or not.

[alexknudsen]

thanks a lot

[alexknudsen]

how about the mamiya rb67??

[alexknudsen]

you meant a light meter right??????


im confused

[cigrainger]

Yes a light meter. If you like the waistlevel viewfinder and photographing portraits, I strongly recommend looking for a Rolleiflex T and a cheap handheld light meter. A decent handheld lightmeter will always come in handy, and Rolleiflexes are absolutely wonderful cameras for portraits. Check out www.keh.com (http://www.keh.com).

The issue is that 90% of the time with a waist level finder you don't have a meter, because the meter is usually in the prism finder.

If you want interchangeable lenses and a modular system, I second the Mamiya 645 or Pentax 645 system. My recommendation for a handheld light meter so you can use the waist level finder still stands.

[alexknudsen]

thank you, i have seen the mamiya 220, which is a tlr like the rollei

any views on that one?


thanks

[alexknudsen]

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=GM709990695230&brandcategoryname=Accessories&Mode=&item=0&ActivateTOC2=&ID=120&BC=GM&BCC=12&CC=70&CCC=7&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=


would this be a could light meter?

[usayit]

As Max listed... I recommend the Pentax 645. Very SLR like, extremely easy to find, and a lot of lenses to choose from. Meter is built in too.

[Alpha]

As Max listed... I recommend the Pentax 645. Very SLR like.

lol, it's very SLR like because it is an SLR, as are all the other cameras I mentioned except the fuji.


Alex,

You would be much better off getting a camera with a light meter built in than buying a camera without a meter and then buying a separate hand-held meter. The reason being cost. A good, accurate and reliable meter will probably run you at least an extra hundred bucks.

Rollei is the only company I know of that builds cameras with light meters built into the body as opposed to a viewing prism. However, they are only on the expensive, newer model TLR's and 6xxx series, which are both wayyyyyy out of your price range. I would stick to 645.

[usayit]

LOl... Ok.. What I meant is that a person familiar with a traditional 35mm SLR will find the Pentax 645 quite natural. The learning curve is easier for someone with some experience with more modern 35mm bodies.

[nealjpage]

Doesn't the Yashica MAT 124 have a meter?

[Alpha]

Yeah. Good point. It takes old 1.35v mercury batteries. Apparently it will take 1.5v lith batteries but can act a little quirky at times.

[Don Simon]

The 124G meter does work with 1.5v batteries; mine looks accurate enough but to be honest I never check the meter on the camera. I'd agree with Max to an extent; going for a camera with built-in meter could save you money - but on the other hand bodies or finders that contain meters will probably cost more, sometimes at least the cost of a decent light meter. The meter needs to be accurate and reliable, not necessarily high-tech (and presumably not a flash meter), so it doesn't have to cost a lot. Personally with my TLRs or other non-metered cameras I either use an inexpensive light meter, or sometimes simply meter with a 35mm SLR instead. Having said that, if you can get a body or finder that meters for a good price, that would definitely be better if only for convenience.

[alexknudsen]

I just found a mamiya c220 kit on craigslist for 225, so i could spend a hundred bucks on a decent light meter, would this be a good deal, it has the 90mm lenses and the waist level viewfinder, the film back

[cigrainger]

If you're going to go TLR, I really recommend a Rolleiflex T or Rolleicord V (or later) in that price range. The Mamiya, while you can use interchangeable lenses, is ridiculously heavy and from my understanding not as well made.

[Alpha]

I would still go SLR. I think it's just a more versatile camera...at the very least in terms of lenses, and a little easier to learn on.

If you don't mind weight, you could go for a Mamiya RB67
http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=RB019990519930&brandcategoryname=Medium%20Format&Mode=searchproducts&item=0&ActivateTOC2=false&ID=&BC=RB&BCC=5&CC=&CCC=&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=&KW=
And then an affordable meter. The image quality advantage of 6x7 over 645 is about 75%.

Otherwise, I would stick to 645. KEH has two "bgn" Pentax 645's for $300 a piece, and a Mamiya 645E for $334.

I shoot regularly with a Pentax 645 and love it.

[cigrainger]

I have to agree that if you don't have a need or want specifically for a TLR or the square negative, or feel you need more lenses, an SLR is more versatile and easier to learn on. Plus the Mamiya 80mm f/2.8 that you usually get with the 645 is, if I'm not mistaken, based on the Planar lens and, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong on that point, is VERY sharp.

[cigrainger]

Oh, and if you only want to do portraits... have you considered large format?

[Alpha]

Oh, and if you only want to do portraits... have you considered large format?

Your thinking is backwards on the format thing. Large format requires a much greater amount of light than smaller ones. Unless you're talking field view cameras (Speed Graphic, Toyo 45CX, etc) and shooting outdoors w/available light, that can be a big, expensive problem. To give an example, I was going to buy some strobes...maybe 600w/s worth or so. Then I bought my 4x5. Now I'm saving for 3000 w/s of power so I can do high-key indoors.

[cigrainger]

Your thinking is backwards on the format thing. Large format requires a much greater amount of light than smaller ones. Unless you're talking field view cameras (Speed Graphic, Toyo 45CX, etc) and shooting outdoors w/available light, that can be a big, expensive problem. To give an example, I was going to buy some strobes...maybe 600w/s worth or so. Then I bought my 4x5. Now I'm saving for 3000 w/s of power so I can do high-key indoors.

The only reason I suggested large format was because you have much more control over each individual exposure, and if you're only taking long thought out shots, then why not go for the larger sheet of film. Then again it is harder to find places to develop it. I can't imagine a better way to understand photography though. And either way if he is just beginning and has a relatively small budget, he is going to have to use available light either way. ;)

Now explain this whole light thing to me. I don't see why a larger format would need more light. The only thing I can imagine is that typically large format lenses have smaller maximum apertures, but even then you're talking 1-3 stops, not nearly that much more power needed I would think. If my understanding is right, then the same EV is the same EV regardless of film size. But I very well could be wrong and I would love it if you would explain it so I can learn.

[Alpha]

Most of it is due to aperture. Have you ever looked at 4x5 or 8x10 ground glass with the lens wide open? The DOF is shallower than anything you've ever seen. It's not uncommon to shoot landscape at f64 or f128. You're easily talking f22 indoors in order to get an entire body clearly focused. That's a lot of light you need.

[cigrainger]

Most of it is due to aperture. Have you ever looked at 4x5 or 8x10 ground glass with the lens wide open? The DOF is shallower than anything you've ever seen. It's not uncommon to shoot landscape at f64 or f128. You're easily talking f22 indoors in order to get an entire body clearly focused. That's a lot of light you need.

Cool, makes sense. I'm not a portrait guy myself so it's always good to learn. Thanks!

[alexknudsen]

I would still go SLR. I think it's just a more versatile camera...at the very least in terms of lenses, and a little easier to learn on.

If you don't mind weight, you could go for a Mamiya RB67
http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=RB019990519930&brandcategoryname=Medium%20Format&Mode=searchproducts&item=0&ActivateTOC2=false&ID=&BC=RB&BCC=5&CC=&CCC=&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=&KW=
And then an affordable meter. The image quality advantage of 6x7 over 645 is about 75%.

Otherwise, I would stick to 645. KEH has two "bgn" Pentax 645's for $300 a piece, and a Mamiya 645E for $334.

I shoot regularly with a Pentax 645 and love it.


ive never ought anything with keh, does buying something "bgn" mean you are getting something that doesnt work right??

do the 645 cameras have the waist level viewfinder??
I wouldnt really mind the weight of the rb67, I actually would like something nice and heavy

[alexknudsen]

does the rb67 have the meter? or is it only if you have the prism, is there a meter with the waistlevel?

[cigrainger]

ive never ought anything with keh, does buying something "bgn" mean you are getting something that doesnt work right??

do the 645 cameras have the waist level viewfinder??
I wouldnt really mind the weight of the rb67, I actually would like something nice and heavy

I'm getting my first KEH item tomorrow and it's in BGN condition, so I'll let you know. But from my understanding KEH always marks items lower than they really are. Something bargain on KEH from what I've heard can easily go for EX or even "Mint" on eBay. If it doesn't work properly, they mark it as non-functioning.

[alexknudsen]

great thanks a lot

[Alpha]

does the rb67 have the meter? or is it only if you have the prism, is there a meter with the waistlevel?

Again, the RB67 does not have a meter built into the body. Only newer Rollei and apparently Yashica Mat 124's do. More specifically, you will not find a camera where you can meter while using a wait-level finder except for those two I just mentioned, and they are way out of your price range. This is why I suggested if you wanted to go with the RB, then you should buy an external meter.

KEH is a very reputable company, and their bargain cameras well above what I would ordinarily consider bargain.

Edit: There is a metering prism for the RB, but it's not cheap. It's called the CDS meter. They also make a CDS "chimney."

[selmerdave]

Just a comment about the meter thing, while external meters cost some once you have one you can use it with any future camera, and they are considerably more useful and much more accurate than on-board meters particularly at the extremes. I have a Yashica 124g (and the meter is immediately adjacent to the focusing screen, so from a foot away you can look at both) and with decent light it will give accurate readings, but anything less than ~9EV and it is waay off. I've used both 1.55V and 1.35V batteries, and that is not related to the issue. For that matter, same deal with my Nikon FM2n, fine in bright light, not in anything else. So while you get a meter built-in, it's really not worth a whole lot. So I think it would be worth spending the money on the meter, chincing a bit on the camera (it will probably not be your last), and learning while you save for a more ideal MF setup. My 2c.

Dave

[alexknudsen]

so when buying a meter, "ambient" means with no flash, and "flash" means with the flash?

[alexknudsen]

for the rb67, does it use a shoe mount flash? where can i get a flash for it?

[Christie Photo]

for the rb67, does it use a shoe mount flash? where can i get a flash for it?


I have a couple of RBs. There is a shoe on the left side of the body, but it is not a hot shoe. I've NEVER mounted anything in that shoe.

I'm curious why you want a waist level finder. For years, I couldn't afford a prism and was constantly standing on just about anything so I could see into the finder after I got the camera to a reasonable height.

I always used a hand held meter. I like to meter the light at the subject, and not from the camera position.

The RB is a fairly large camera... not something you'd typically use hand held.

Good luck!

Pete

[alexknudsen]

i just found a bronica etrsi in mint condition with 75mm lens, 120 back, and waistlevel viewfinder for 300, would this be a good one? i could still buy a light meter if I have to

[Christie Photo]

i just found a bronica etrsi in mint condition with 75mm lens, 120 back, and waistlevel viewfinder for 300, would this be a good one? i could still buy a light meter if I have to


Several of my friends worked with Bronica systems and loved it. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Pete

[Alpha]

Bronica is cheap, but not as easily serviceable and with not quite as many parts available as Mamiya.

[nealjpage]

i just found a bronica etrsi in mint condition with 75mm lens, 120 back, and waistlevel viewfinder for 300, would this be a good one? i could still buy a light meter if I have to

seems a little high--I paid about $150 for my ETRS system. That had the body, 75mm lens, 120 back, and a winder. Maybe mine was cheap. But they're plentiful out there. Great camera by the way. I've never used Mamiya, but I can't imagine they'd be much better.

[alexknudsen]

is the rb67 way too heavy? would i be able to carry it around or is it strictly a more studio camera....would the mamiya m645 be a better choice???

[alexknudsen]

which is better mamiya c220 or c330??

i would consider one of those as well

[Alpha]

The RB67 is very heavy. Anything in the 645 format is going to be much lighter. Once again, I would strongly encourage you to go SLR as opposed to TLR, but what do I know...

[alexknudsen]

does the m645 have a meter built into it??

[Alpha]

I'm sorry, but have you been reading any of my replies? You keep asking the same questions after I answer them.

The m645 does not have a meter built in. It doesn't have anything built in, just like the RB67, or a Bronica, or a Hasselblad. The body, back, lens, and prism (thing that you look through) are all separate. If you want all of them, you buy a kit. In most medium format cameras, the meter is built into the prism, not the body (deja vu?). As such, you have to buy a prism with a meter in it, or find a kit that comes with a metering prism. Any time you see "AE" in the prism description, or it's explicitly called "metering prism", that means there's a meter in the prism.

This is why I suggested the pentax 645 or the mamiya 645e. They have meters built in because they do not have separate prisms.

[alexknudsen]

sorry i was confused about the whole prism thing, im really new to all of this and I dont mean to be a pain.

[Alpha]

Go look at some photos of the cameras. You can see that the body, back, lens, and prism (on top) are all separate items. Should give you a better idea of how the whole modular setup works.

[alexknudsen]

by the way maxbloom, I know that you will reply to this message, because you never leave your computer You are not a real photographer.


:drool:


love cassie

[Alpha]

Of course not. I'm a pretend photographer. One who is very confused at the moment. I have no idea what that means.

[Christie Photo]

Of course not. I'm a pretend photographer.

Actually.... this clears up quite a bit for me. I always suspected that you were a figment of my imagination.

[Paul Ron]

alexknudsen
What are your intended uses for the camera? Are you using it for handheld, street, studio, landscape....?

Starting with MF, you need to get some facts straight. These are professional cameras, not home owner snap shot cameras. The older TLRs came in a few different flavors. The Rolies were travel cameras with meters n use amenaties. Since they were built so well. many were used as professioanal cameras and are very sought after to this day but not all. Only the ones with the finner lenses, not the cheaper ones. So if you want a good Rolie, you will pay $2000 or more today.

Mamiya TLRs were built for the industry. They are work horses meant to be used on a daily basis for the rest of your life. They have fine lenses and still get a good price today. A lens can run you $200 alone. The bodies and basic kits can be found in good shape for around $200.

Now we get to the Bronica you mentioned, the ETRS. It's a fine camera adn will last you long long time. It's rugged and the lenses are great no matter which line you get. There are enough parts available since so many cameras were made and sold. There are so many of these cameras around that you can find em relativesly cheap, a kit for about $250 in good condition.

The RB67 is a Sherman tank. It was meant to do battle. That is one heck of a camera in terms of being professional. The lenses are all great, rgardless of series and what people say about coatings. That camera will serve you till the end of time with very little care. It will need some maintenance and care but that goes for any professioanl camera being used by amatures. The cost of maintenance on any pro camera will not justify the cost adn that is why you see so many of these going so cheap sicne the dawn of digital.

Put it this way.... your RB lens n shutter may need to be cleaned n lubed. That can cost $150 on a 90mm lens. You can buy another used 90mm lens from KEH in BGN condition for $65. Would you do the CLA or sell it as a dusty lens for $50?

Of all the starter cameras, I recomend the ETRS. It's small(er) and a very reliable SLR needing very little maintenance. Is modular enough to make it anything you desire.

BUT!... you will need a meter regardless of the camera you buy. Don't rely on built in meters, they are too old to be reliable.

[alexknudsen]

just picked up a mamiya c330 pro for 150 with the whole kit, including a light meter. It is in unbelievable condition,

I am amazed by the results

Thank you all for your input