What's a good quality, but low priced medium format film camera?

[Jeremy Z]

I'm just considering at this point...My first thought was a Yashica Mat of some sort. Depending on how fancy/new of one I look at, they are between about $130 and $400. I had a Yashica Mat before, and I quite liked it. I didn't like having to use an accessory meter though.I happened across a lady's site where she was singing the praises of the Pentax 67. That one looks awesome. It seems to be able to make full use of a nice big negative, without necessarily losing stuff to cropping. But I looked on ebay, and they seem to be starting at over $500. Yikes.I'm not really a fan of the Pentax 645, as it seems like it doesn't make the most out of 120 film, and they're also expensive.What else is out there that is affordable, with good optics and a working light meter for a fair price? It doesn't have to be an SLR. I'm open to rangefinders and TLRs as well. I probably won't want to spend the money on more lenses anyhow, which is why I started looking at TLRs...

[Alpha]

I have a pentax 645 and absolutely love it...picked it up for $250 for a full kit.

Alternatively, you might try the Mamiya645 (J, E, or Super if you're on a budget). For metered, affordable cameras, your options are pretty much limited to 645. I suppose you could try the fuji MF rangefinders. I think they have meters, and KEH has some good prices.

[Jeremy Z]

Wow. I learned a lot just now. I've been surfing while the bears have been eating humble pie.There are lots of loud-mouthed people out there on the net who insist that we are all fools for using 35mm and digital for everything. They say that 35mm is good only for action & portability. They cite the fact that medium format has a negative at least 3X bigger, and so they make better enlargements.But let's not pretend that the comparison is even-up. There are no decent medium format cameras with any real capability for less than $1000, with lens. (new) Used, it is slightly less dismal. One can slip into a nice TLR for $120-500, but there is no flexibility. No hope of shooting action. No hope of a telephoto candid.Where I could start out for $80 in 35mm (K1000 + 50mm) and have nice enlargements up to 11x14 and decent ones up to 20x30, the same thing in 6x6 or 6x7, it would be well over $700.I'll probably check out the manual focus Fuji rangefinders, as Max suggested, and keep myself rooted to earth and consider an old Yashica A TLR...

[Alpha]

You're being obtuse. What is this "real capability" you speak of, anyway? You want a camera that can do everything? Buy a Mamiya 645 Pro AFD, a Contax 645, or a Hasselblad H series. If you want a be-all-end all MF camera, you'll have to spend a lot of money. That's just how the game goes. The best cameras in each format are equally expensive relative to each other. If you want to get into MF that badly, then either bite the bullet and buy a primo camera or stop complaining so damn much and buy a normal camera. You can make do with a normal camera, or (god forbid), one without a meter.

[Jeremy Z]

This thread has lost a lot of posts since the maintenance... :(

[Finsen]

This thread has lost a lot of posts since the maintenance... :(

An entire thread about obtaining retro color on film was also lost in this forum. Hope they had backup and will put everything back together.

This MF thread has been very informative by the way. Thanks for bringing up the topic!

[Steph]

Jeremy,

I posted an answer to this thread last night. I don't know if you had time to read it before the threads disappeared. You were considering a pentax 67 as you find 6x7 to be the ideal format. Bronica also made a 6x7 (the GS-1 (http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/gs1.asp)). It is similar to the SQ-A but slightly bulkier.

[JIP]

Most Medium format cameras (used) can be had for a pretty cheaply nowadays I personally use a Bronica ETRSi. I paid over $3000 for 2 of them about 6 years ago but I know now they are going for tons less like under $500 that's 645 but it is the mos portable.

[selmerdave]

Hey Jeremy,

Here you go:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/ele/276065880.html

Dave

[Jeremy Z]

I will definitely keep my eye on craigslist when I have the money. For now, I don't exactly have the four hundo sitting around. My wife has plans to buy a hide-a-bed soon, for when her mother visits from Poland.

Steph: The GS-1 doesn't seem like a very good value compared to the Pentax 67. I think I will try to decide between a Pentax 67 and a Bronica SQ-something. If I stumble across a good deal (~$100) on a clean used TLR, I may jump on that.

Let me ask everyone's opinion on this: I saw a Yashica A locally, very clean, for $130. I think I may be able to get $10-20 off of that price. I *almost* bought it, but I was scared off by the fact that it has very limited shutter speeds. It has B, plus 1/25 through 1/500. It seems like they really planned for us to be hand-holding it most of the time, hehehe. With a camera like this, I would probably have it tripod-mounted more often than a 35mm size camera, so I'm thinking those slow shutter speeds would be useful.

Am I wrong? What shutter speeds would most natural light portraits and scenery be shot at?

[ksmattfish]

I'd choose a Yashica, or other cheaper medium format camera, based on the lens design. Do some research and figure out what the 4 element design is called (the equivalent of a Zeiss Tessar or Schneider Xenar). Someone had posted it I think, but it must have been lost. Didn't Mitica post something about an even more advanced lens design? Maybe that's a 5 or 6 element design like the Planar or Xenotar?

That said, I love my Ansco Titan 6x6 with the anastigmat lens (a mere 3 element design).

[Jeremy Z]

That said, I love my Ansco Titan 6x6 with the anastigmat lens (a mere 3 element design).
Well, in the days before lens coatings got really good, a 3 element lens could be more contrasty than a 4 or 5, due to less lens surfaces for them to pass through.

On the used, non-ebay market, the SLRs sometimes don't cost more than the 35mm. People have found them in grandpa's attic and figure they're useless because they're not electronic.

Take a look at this sale for example:
http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/emd/274532660.html

[Jeremy Z]

...also, if I'm looking at inexpensive TLRs vs. SLRs, TLRs may take sharper pictures at slower shutter speeds because there's no mirror slap. I think I would stick with an SLR that has a mirror lock-up. (Does the SQ-B have this?)

[Jeremy Z]

Is this a good deal?
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/ele/272877020.html

[Don Simon]

I'd choose a Yashica, or other cheaper medium format camera, based on the lens design. Do some research and figure out what the 4 element design is called (the equivalent of a Zeiss Tessar or Schneider Xenar). Someone had posted it I think, but it must have been lost. Didn't Mitica post something about an even more advanced lens design? Maybe that's a 5 or 6 element design like the Planar or Xenotar?

The 'Yashinon' lens is usually thought to be better than the 'Yashikor'. According to Mitica some early Yashicas have a German 'Luxamar' lens which is also better than the Yashikor. From my own fairly limited experience I can confirm the Yashinon lens produces great results, although I think the Rokkor on the Minolta Autocord is slightly better (but this may just be psychological).

Jeremy I would tend to agree that a slowest speed of 1/25 would be limiting. I always use my TLRs with a tripod and often use slow shutter speeds. So I would skip that one.

[Steph]

I think I would stick with an SLR that has a mirror lock-up. (Does the SQ-B have this?)

Yes. Only the SQ does not have it (and that's the one I have :( ).

[Steph]

The GS-1 doesn't seem like a very good value compared to the Pentax 67.

Agreed but make sure that if you buy a Pentax 67 it has the mirror lock up as I don't think all versions have it.

[snaremop]

I have a Yashica Mat 124 G, and a Sekonic light meter. The camera is really for nature and landscape photography, as you mentioned earlier.

I picked up a great working good condition yashica Mat 124 G for 56 dollars.

[Mitica100]

I'd choose a Yashica, or other cheaper medium format camera, based on the lens design. Do some research and figure out what the 4 element design is called (the equivalent of a Zeiss Tessar or Schneider Xenar). Someone had posted it I think, but it must have been lost. Didn't Mitica post something about an even more advanced lens design? Maybe that's a 5 or 6 element design like the Planar or Xenotar?

That said, I love my Ansco Titan 6x6 with the anastigmat lens (a mere 3 element design).

Sorry to be so late with this... Early Yashicamats were made with the Lumaxar lenses, which were supposedly German (Zeiss?). They were a Tessar type. The lens was renamed Yashinon later, when it was actually made (same design) in Japan.

You can actually get a very nice Yashicamat for under $100. A Yashica D is not worth more than, say, $75 in good condition.

[Efergoh]

Cheap?

I have a Lubitel (tiny twin lens) that I paid $20 for on Ebay, and a Kiev 6C (cold war russian battle tank) that I paid $60 for. Both shoot 6x6.
My fav is the Mamiya RB67. Will be picking one up from my proffessor for $300 at the end of this semester.

[blackdoglab]

I agree, a Lubitel 166 isn't bad for starters. They're simple, cheap, and fairly easy to manage. There's also Seagull twin lens reflex cameras that are reasonable.

[Mitica100]

Alas, a colleague of mine bought a Bronica ETRS (complete) for $125.00 off Ebay. Camera is in great condition. This is the time to buy MF!

[montresor]

Great price on the Bronica! I usually see them going for quite a bit more than that.

[myopia]

mamiya 645.

[mysteryscribe]

The most flexable tlr ever made is being giving away on ebay these days. And trust me you can shoot anything with it. Just not fast like a 35 digital or even a slr med format.

Back in the day I owned a mamiya 330 and would buy one again if I was looking that direction and I might be soon. I'm about tired of building cameras.

[montresor]

Back in the day I owned a mamiya 330 and would buy one again if I was looking that direction and I might be soon. I'm about tired of building cameras.

I say get the 330 now. Just put a 55mm on mine and am shooting more film with it than I can ever hope to process. An absolute joy to work with! Beautiful ergonomics. Why wait?

[mysteryscribe]

I have a room full of cameras I just built to shoot roll film. I need to at least try them out before I decide to wimp out and buy a ready made camera.

The 330 was a hoss, there were times I felt like i needed an assistant to carry the camera bag, but you can drive nails with it there is not doubt about that.

I had been in business about four years before I made the decission to move up to the interchangable lenses of the 330.

That and the fancy prism and it could do anything an slr could do. Well almost lol.

[ksmattfish]

There's also Seagull twin lens reflex cameras that are reasonable.

Seagull TLRs are made using the old Yashica factory machines, but without the Yashica quality control, IMO. I am amazed at what new Seagulls go for. If you can get one significantly cheaper than a clean Yashica sure, but it seems to me that Yashicas end up going cheaper, and I think they are put together a lot better.

[mysteryscribe]

As with most things photographic it seems I owned the 1a the 4a and the 203 folder. The glass was pretty good on the seagull. I never had any problem with the lense on mine. That's the upside. Freestyle once sold these by the way.

The down side. I had one of the pegs on the bottom of the 1a missing on arrival. The shutter linkage on th 203 never worked. So yes the quality control was sucko. At the time it was said that they were made in a state factory by politcal prisoners. I'm not sure if the factory is still state run or not.

[montresor]

Late entry on an old thread... One thing that might influence me to get a Pentax 67 is that, according to an article I read, its lenses are mountable on the Pentax 645. At least in the later (expensive) models.

[Kahn10]

So what did you end up getting Jeremy?

[Paul Ron]

MF is at an all time low. You can get a Bronica ETRS for $250 in great condition.

I'll sell you an RB67 Pro-S for $300 that is just hanging around my shop.

[Joxby]

Oblong is a funny old format when your used to square, I couldn't get close to a Mam 645 pro when fat old Veronica was still leading me astray.
There was something about the lady, built like a tank with dodgy seals and magnum recoil slap that came between me and Mamiya...
Veronica is still in my life...the 645 isn't.

[Paul Ron]

If you are looking for a nice MF SLR get the Bronica ETRS. They are always selling for about $250 on eh forum classifieds. Another camera that is very popular are the tanks of MF, the RB67-Pro-S. These beasts are fantastic and going very cheap thses days.

The Yashicas are fine if you are getting em for less that $50. Anything more is really too much compared to what you can get for about the same money.

[EZzing]

I'm currently saving up for an RB67 or a Bronica. I have about 2 more weeks before I can pick one up myself.

Which lens would be best for the RB67 for landscape or nature shots at the park?

Which lens should I look for with the Bronica?

I would like to buy one with a suitable lens already attached because trips to the park would be all it would be used for.

What would you guys suggest??

Bill

[Joxby]

50mm is wide angle on medium format, cant speak for RB67 but I'm fairly certain its the same.
Generally a kit of a body and lens will usually mean the lens is a standard focal length for that format, probably 75-80mm, your less likely to find a kit with the included lens being a 50, its not impossible, but they're usually sold seperately.
The standard lens has less distortion and would be better for the "nature" shots you speak of, the 50 I use on Veronica gives a portrait a fivehead rather than a forehead, but its a great scape lens.
Theres quite a difference in suitable focal lengths between "landscape" and "nature" shots, I imagine nature to be much closer than distant hills.

These cameras deserve more than a trip to the park, btw, infact if you get an RB I want to come watch you:D, Veronicas aren't as heavy/bulk.

[EZzing]

Hi Joxby, If you lived closer, it would be great to have someone with knowledge along! Our local park is enough of an excursion for me these days.

It's about 200 acres of wooded area. It also has the typical park setting with the large grassed areas for picnic and a nice little lake and a lot of wildlife. If you get there early enough you may spot a deer or two.

I would prefer a trip to the forest, but it's over a hour away. I can be at the park in 15 minutes.

I will probably have to use a hand-cart to move a large medium format camera and a tripod will be a must. Weight of equipment is already a real issue, as I've lost a lot of mobility and range of motion due to severe arthritis. That's just the way it is :) The upside is that I can't wait to get outside every day now and play (learn) with my cameras.

I would love to hear more about your Veronica and your approach to outdoor photography!

If there's any members around the Atlanta area, I would love to hear from you!

Take care,
Bill

[Joxby]

Hi Joxby, If you lived closer, it would be great to have someone with knowledge along! Our local park is enough of an excursion for me these days.

It's about 200 acres of wooded area. It also has the typical park setting with the large grassed areas for picnic and a nice little lake and a lot of wildlife. If you get there early enough you may spot a deer or two.

I would prefer a trip to the forest, but it's over a hour away. I can be at the park in 15 minutes.

I will probably have to use a hand-cart to move a large medium format camera and a tripod will be a must. Weight of equipment is already a real issue, as I've lost a lot of mobility and range of motion due to severe arthritis. That's just the way it is :) The upside is that I can't wait to get outside every day now and play (learn) with my cameras.

I would love to hear more about your Veronica and your approach to outdoor photography!

If there's any members around the Atlanta area, I would love to hear from you!

Take care,
Bill

Closer ?, waddya mean, its only 3000 miles:lmao:
My approach is to have a plan, go with specific intention and only carry the equipment for that intention, I only carry a tripod for landscapes or things of that nature.
For really light, no idea what I'm shooting, I use a Mamiya 6, but I dont enjoy using that like I do Bronica.
Comparatively a bag of RB is the bigger weight and bulk of a Bronica, but if you have a trolley of some kind and are prepared to pull it you can take the whole shooting match.
Personally I see the biggest oppertunity is to shoot people, theres only so many angles you can shoot park landscapes from and I suppose the wildlife will have its limitations.
If your hinges can hold up, 400 film and a bright day will be hand holding territory.
I'd say with your current arthritis condition, a rangefinder would be easier to handle even with a tripod, but they can be hellish expensive M/F and only a few meter.
You dont really say what your prepared to accept, is metering essential, would you spend time handholding or not at all, an RB is pretty much stuck on a tripod at all times but Bronicas, Bladds, cameras of that design are handholdable in good light, and there are metered prisms available.

[EZzing]

Hi Joxby, 3000 miles by computer is practically next door!

What I'm really looking to do is to have one "near professional" grade camera in medium format. To me, the medium format prints have the best in clarity.

Photography will only and always be a hobby for me. I'm retired and I sure don't want a new career.

I have a few medium format folders and a few TLRs and at least a dozen or so 35mms that are minolta, pentax, mamiya, yashica etc. I'm starting to look at antique cameras from the 1930s and 40s as well as haviing a more modern M-F.

I like your approach with a plan. What I am doing now is to take one film camera and my digital and go to the park.

There are a lot of interesting features like stone bridges and stone knee walls around the lake. The wildlife is not so wild in some spots and they are used to people getting very close. At this point, I am using the same locations at different times of day to learn about light and shadows and catching the reflections in the water etc. I'm still learning the basics of photography and I like being able to use the same subjects under different conditions and camera settings.

I really am a total beginner and not a bit shy about asking the most basic questions. I'm not sure what a metered prism is? Do they indicate what the aperture setting should be?

I do have a range finder 35mm that feels a bit odd for me to use as I'm more accustomed to the SLR and looking through the focusing lens.

I do enjoy photographing people and I really like to shoot the fishermen as they are plentiful and diverse subjects and don't mind being filmed.

For the medium format camera I would like to have one that I could handhold or use on a tripod. It's looking like a bronica may be better suited and I may have to continue to use a 35mm for the ducks other birds and animals I can get close to.

I can hand hold for short periods of time a few times a day. I typically shoot for about ten to fifteen minutes and then rest a while.

I would also use the new camera to take portraits of my dogs and other friends and family where portability would not be an issue.


I guess it all boils down to the fact that I have a weakness for cameras and
I would like a really great camera in M-F.


Bill

[Joxby]

We gotta stop buying cameras, I have 3 film and 3 digital, but only one pair of hands.
Where cost is an issue, and 645 not an option, the 6x6 Bronicas are hard to beat, but they're hardly modern in the broadest sense of the word and you need to be carefull with perishing light seals on the old ones.
Bladds are probably better, but expensive comparatively.
SQ serise is cheap and theres loads of add-ons in the range, I cant say much about RB except it is a beast of a camera and a damn fine machine.
I have Bronica EC, old as the hills, shot seals and completely manual but she takes some beau images when she feels like it, I wouldn't recommend something of that age though for trouble free reliable shooting.
There are metered prisms that do varying amounts of calculations for you, they clip on top of the body in place of the waist level finder, they all have an eye cup, some you look through the same way you look through an slr view finder, others are chimneys that you look down through, non give you the distance between you face and the camera that a wlfinder does.
They do meter, Apperture priority, that is - you choose the apperture and the camera meters and chooses the shutter speed for correct exposure.
Some do both App and Shut priority and have a mechanical/electrical connection that alters settings for you instead of just giving a meter reading.
Maybe the more up to date ones do everything I'm not sure, but there are un-metered prisms also, so read up what your buying.
I'm not certain what is available for every SQ model or which would be best for you, I'm stuck in the dark ages with Veronica.
I would think the SQAi is the most advanced in the range, besides GS1 which is 6x7 btw.
Bronica SQ serise (http://www.ayton.id.au/gary/photo/photo_BronicaSQ.htm)
Load of stuff about SQ and accessories (http://www.tamron.com/bronica/slr_archives.asp)

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ktphotonics/cameraimages/bronica.jpgwaist level finder

http://www.adorama.com/images/articles/010206_2_2.jpgmetered prism and motorised film advance

[EZzing]

Hi Joxby, My wife is sharing the sentiment about stopping the camera purchases ;). Thanks for the information on the cameras. it will be a tough choice. I don't mind doing a bit of simple work on cameras. I've replaced light seals on 4 with good results. What would stymie me would be something serious like film advance problems shutter and shutter speed.

I looked on KEH last night and saw a fixed lens Fuji but I know I would want more lenses in the future as finances allow.

Your explanation on the prisms contained a wealth of good information for me.
I'm grateful for the time you spent! I understand them better and I saved the text for future reference!

Thanks

Bill

[Helen B]

Have you definitely decided against a Hasselblad? There is a lot of it about at ridiculously cheap (for Hasselblad) prices. They are a lot lighter than an RB67. The RB67 is just over 6 lbs with a plain waist level finder and a typical lens, an equivalent 500C/M outfit would be about 3½ lbs. You lose the bellows focusing capability of the RB of course.

Best,
Helen

[EZzing]

Hi Helen, The more I look, the longer it could take to save for it if I keep my perspective.

Hasselblads are pretty pricey around here and I hesitate to spend that kind of money over the internet sight unseen. I haven't seen one under $700.00 locally.

I would like to be able to pick up a couple of extra lenses within a month or so.

After the last of my children move out in a few years I will probably be able to better afford to pick up a hasselblad with the lenses I would need. But for now, it looks like a bronica or a mamiya or ????

This will be absolutely for hobby only so I have to contain my addiction to equipment some how !!!!!!

Take care

Bill