critique thread

[ksmattfish]

In response to this lively thread

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I propose that we need a Critique Gallery. Posting in the Critique Gallery would be different than the normal Photo Gallery, in that the act of posting would be a request for serious critique. The Photo Gallery would still remain the gallery for folks who want comments, but maybe aren't ready for a full blown critique of their work, or just want to keep folks up on what they are currently shooting, etc...

[terri]

mmmm, must we??? The gallery forum clearly states you are posting your photos there for feedback and comments....this might be another case of overly splintering the forum to accommodate a few. Just my two cents. :D

[Chase]

I see where your suggestion is coming from, but I think it would be better to set the expectation that if you post your photos in the gallery, it is for critique. I have made a slight change to the statement under the Photo Gallery link and I would be happy to edit it further based on suggestions to push the idea that if you post photos, it is with the understanding and expectation that you will receive feedback (both positive and negative) on them.

Thanks,

Some Admin Guy...

[ksmattfish]

Sure, that works.

Terri, you are probably right in that it would get too splintered. I guess that I feel that's it's not just black and white (no pun intended); it's not critique or no critique. There is a middle ground, where folks would like to post photos they are proud of and get comments and maybe some back patting without having their images torn to pieces by some egotistical, self-proclaimed expert (LIKE ME!!!).

I know that these could be posted in the themes gallery, but at the same time, sometimes it's a downer to have to post my sunset pic with all the other forty million sunset pics ( :lol: just kidding! Sunsetters, you know I love ya). I think the themes gallery is a great place to learn and get ideas, but it seems to me that sometimes pics sort of get lost in there.

Many of the photography forum sites I visit have both galleries (and I'm glad this site isn't like them). It appears to me that most folks use the standard gallery over the critique gallery. I take this to mean they don't want a hardcore critique, and that's okay. Unless you're a egotistical, self-proclaimed expert a good critique can be quite intimidating, and not at all what you need to find inspiration to continue your art, craft, whatever. The egotistical, self proclaimed experts can handle a hardcore critique, because we are already secure in the knowledge that the rest of the world is a bunch of gibbering ignoramuses who don't have the vision to realize our artistic genius. :cyclops:

[terri]

The egotistical, self proclaimed experts can handle a hardcore critique, because we are already secure in the knowledge that the rest of the world is a bunch of gibbering ignoramuses who don't have the vision to realize our artistic genius.


Exactly. :mrgreen: You're so SMART.

[Chase]

Well, I'm not completely against the idea....I'd be intersted to hear what others think.

Speak up! :)

[Osmer_Toby]

i agree with terri. one gallery to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. :D

[MDowdey]

i agree with terri. one gallery to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. :D


well, at least we will be total geeks together!!


md

[Osmer_Toby]

:lol:

also, at the risk of being frowned on for offering a link to another site, the article found at http://www.naturephotographers.net/je1001-1.html is an excellent one- perhaps someone ought to write something similar for our site, and post it along with the directions on how to post images.
or maybe it can be reproduced here with the author's permission?

btw- is it cool to link to another site?

[Chase]

btw- is it cool to link to another site?

I don't have a problem with it, but watch out for some of those crazy moderators ;) :lol:

[Geronimo]

btw- is it cool to link to another site?

There are other sites? :scratch:

[ksmattfish]

The egotistical, self proclaimed experts can handle a hardcore critique, because we are already secure in the knowledge that the rest of the world is a bunch of gibbering ignoramuses who don't have the vision to realize our artistic genius.


Exactly. :mrgreen: You're so SMART.

I tried to make this part of my signature, but it's too long!

[tr0gd0o0r]

I'm sort of torn on this whole issue. On one hand, whenever i post a pic, personally I want the hardcore critique that makes me run to my bed crying. But i normally get the normal stuff. Also i have a hard time motivating myself to write a simple little response to a photograph. But on the other hand I've been to some other forums that have like 50 different sections and its ridiculous. I'd rather see the forum stick together than splinter off into a million sub-categories. On the other hand, growth is important and sometimes things need to seperate, we just need to exercise caution with what gets created. I like the way this is being handlled, and if the majority of the people think its a good idea, then it is probably one of the occasions when a split is a good idea.

Personally I'd vote for trying the new forum out for a little while and see how it goes, but wait until there is plenty of input to make a decision w/

[photogoddess]

My 2 cents... 2 threads would be fine but if the forum sticks with 1... I think that if people that want an honest, sometimes painful critique, they should say it in their posts AND be willing to listen to the responses. If not, just ask for comments. When the person making the post doesn't specify, while I won't say anything untrue, I error on the side of caution.

[gonzo]

give me pain, give me pain, baby!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_111.gif

My 2 cents... 2 threads would be fine but if the forum sticks with 1... I think that if people that want an honest, sometimes painful critique, they should say it in their posts AND be willing to listen to the responses. If not, just ask for comments. When the person making the post doesn't specify, while I won't say anything untrue, I error on the side of caution.

I think it already sort of happens this way naturally at the moment.

my my my, the photoforum has been quite lively today the past couple o'days!

[photogoddess]

vonnagy - Where did you get that emoticon? I LOVE it! :badangel:

I have to agree with you, it's been REALLY interesting here lately!

[oriecat]

This is all so very deja vu...

[tr0gd0o0r]

Well, i finally got around to actually reading the thread that birthed this one and i think my view has changed. I hink a critique section would be good idea for this forum to help it and the members grow

[markc]

I don't feel strongly about it myself, but I do like the idea. I don't think anyone wants to say "I just want to hear good things". That isn't exactly what encouragement is about, but some people may feel funny about it enough that they would rather not post than ask people to go easy on a critique. If there were two forums, then it would simply be a matter of posting it in the right one and nothing would have to be said. Rather than a critique forum and a encouragement forum, it would be more like one for critiques, and one for just saying "Hey, look at this. I think it's neat." Sort of like the theme threads are now.

Heck, since anyone can start a theme thread, maybe just use the two current forums and only rename and redefine them slightly.

[karissa]

I like the idea however you go about achieving it. Renaming or describing or making a whole new one all together. Kinda like Light critique section and... make you cry brutal critique sections. :lol:

[voodoocat]

If there was a critique forum there would have to be more restrictions.. Like only one or 2 photos to be critiqued. These posts with a million photos could stay in the gallery.

[karissa]

Voo has a point. It is hard to think about 20 photos in one posting. It is nice when you can study and reply to pict.

[wwjoeld]

i come here to have my photos looked at and when they are only on the front board for a half an hour because of the over posts i get tired of wasting my time posting them, we need a critique forum please!!!!!!

[manda]

This is a good point wwjoeld.
The same reason that we asked people not to post a lot of threads at once for separate photos.
The gallery forum moves very quickly and threads dont stay on the first page for long at all.

I must admit that sometimes I will post something just for the hell of it, and get a shock when I come back to find everyone pointing out what I did wrong lol
But thats just me, Im a sensitive sook who doesnt cope well with criticism. :oops:

[Chase]

I'm sold that a critique forum is a good thing. I'll be putting one together soon and we'll set up some basic guidelines for it. :)

[MDowdey]

Ok here is my 2 pence worth

I like the idea, but it could get out of hand quickly. as voodoo said, we should limit it to 2 pics...such as "should i do this?" "or this?"

There needs to be set guidelines and the critique should be brutal, forthcoming and laced with obvious tips for improvement of the shot or shots...

ok, im done... :)

md

[Chase]

Ok, let's pull together opinions on this.

Please submit your suggestions for guidelines to help keep the focus in this new forum section. Some points to consider are limiting number of photos per post and limiting how often the same person should post.

Let us know your thoughts.

[tr0gd0o0r]

I'd agree limiting both one picture per post (unless its as MD says about this or that) and limit the # of posts a person can make we don't have like 10 posts from the same person. Also I think a sticky that has guidlines for a critique may be helpful

[motcon]

I'd agree limiting both one picture per post ..... Also I think a sticky that has guidlines for a critique may be helpful


while i'm here sipping a beer, i'll chime in on this topic.

i think the purpose of the want of critique is get an opinion of the photographic eye, NOT the photograph. there's a difference.

'i like the reds and the texture of the boards is really cool'

'the reds are nice, but overpower the photo as they take up the majority of the frame. the texture of the boards is a nice detail. i think that moving them to the left a bit would balance the photo a bit more. you may want to try rating x-brand film at ei-n; you'll find the shadows are much more defined.'


big difference.

a true critique is feedback on the vision, process, etc. of the photographer exemplified in a photograph.


that said, the reason i've stopped posting is because i ASK for critique and a few do critique, but then it gets lost in the 'look what i did' posts. those that obsess over a photograph, working on it for hours until it strikes the right chord and want critique , well, they want critique because they are willing to invest hours more back into that photograph if need be.

i agree with the one image per post thought for reasons aforementioned. i would've welcomed days of critique on the last two posts that i made simply because i can't afford to live in my head only. i need the opinions of others.

further to this, a knowledge base is in the making when serious, varied critiques are posted.

[photogoddess]

There is a place to put the "show me" photos - which I think is fantastic but I think it would be nice to have a thread for anyone wanting a serious critique. So, that said, I am all for a separate thread. Personally, I would like to have a brutally honest critique if I were to post an image there. I, like Motcon, can not be the sole view of my work. I just think that people need to be prepared for that kind of a critique if they post within that thread.

[photobug]

The big problem I have with critiquing pics is that the poster very seldom takes the time to explain what the vision/purpose/aim of the pic was.

Since I don't have ESP, I usually guess wrong on the above items, or I'm reduced to "I like it" or "I don't get it", neither of which are useful or helpful.

Mostly I just don't bother to reply when I see "I just took this pic, what do you think?"

Now, if somebody asked "I was trying to do "X", does "Y" make it work, or detract from my desired result" I have something to work with and can render an honest opinion.

But that's just me. :?

[markc]

The big problem I have with critiquing pics is that the poster very seldom takes the time to explain what the vision/purpose/aim of the pic was.
I like to know this after I've looked over an image. Otherwise I can have a hard time seperating out what I knew ahead of time and what I got from looking at the image. Plus, a lot of times people don't have a conscious idea of what they are trying to say beyond making a nice looking image, so they might not be able to tell us.

That said, if a poster does have a goal in mind, maybe putting a spoiler tag just before saying what it is will give people a reminder to scrutinize the image first before reading any further. I don't think there's any need to make it a formal thing, but it might be helpful to keep in mind.

[photogoddess]

The big problem I have with critiquing pics is that the poster very seldom takes the time to explain what the vision/purpose/aim of the pic was.
I like to know this after I've looked over an image. Otherwise I can have a hard time seperating out what I knew ahead of time and what I got from looking at the image. Plus, a lot of times people don't have a conscious idea of what they are trying to say beyond making a nice looking image, so they might not be able to tell us.

That said, if a poster does have a goal in mind, maybe putting a spoiler tag just before saying what it is will give people a reminder to scrutinize the image first before reading any further. I don't think there's any need to make it a formal thing, but it might be helpful to keep in mind.

I think the idea of an explaination of what the photographer had in mind with the spoiler line is a good one. That should make giving a true critique easier.

[motcon]

I think the idea of an explaination of what the photographer had in mind with the spoiler line is a good one. That should make giving a true critique easier.

this is where it gets sticky. i disagree.


"Si tu fais des images, ne parle pas, n'écris pas ne t'analyse pas, ne réponds à aucune question." ["If you take photos, don't speak, don't write, don't analyze yourself, and don't answer any questions."] --(Robert Doisneau)


perhaps after a few critiques come through, the photographer could point out where it was supposed to go. after all, it's a photograph; it should stand on its own.

[Digital Matt]

I think if you are serious about your work, you should be open to a critique. I don't show my work to anyone without expecting, or at least being ready for a critique.

I open to a critique no matter what subforum it's posted in. If you are not, it's like saying that you've already learned everything you need to know, and you're already as good as you'll ever get, which is never true for anyone in any field at any time. :p

That's my 2cents. I don't think we need a seperate subforum. I'd hate to have a section where I felt like I couldn't make a suggestion about an image or something. That's just wierd.

[photobug]

The big problem I have with critiquing pics is that the poster very seldom takes the time to explain what the vision/purpose/aim of the pic was.

Ah, I didn't finish the statement. The next sentence should have read "Because... they frequently don't know themselves what the object of the pic was."

That's not a knock on said mythical poster, it's more a comment on the state of learning photography. I think many people have a strong desire to improve their photograpy. This is good.

Where the problem comes in (for me) is when they post a pic for critique and they have a vague feeling that something isn't quite right, but they aren't sure what might be "wrong" with it. This is a matter of experience, and ties in with this statement-

perhaps after a few critiques come through, the photographer could point out where it was supposed to go. after all, it's a photograph; it should stand on its own.

which assumes that the photographer knows what (s)he was trying to convey in the pic. Now when motcon, or Dew, or Voodoocat, or vonnagy, or, or, or... post a pic for a critique I'm confident that they know what they were trying to achieve.

Unfortunately, I'm sometimes a little bit slow on the uptake and it isn't always obvious to me what I'm supposed to be looking at/for. That's a personal failing on my part, not the photographers'.

So, because I wasn't in your head when you took the pic it's hard for me to say if you accomplished your goal if I don't know what it is. Thus, for me, I want/need to know what you were trying to do in order to evaluate whether or not you accomplished the goal.

Show 10 people a pic & you'll get 10 versions, all differing to some degree, of what is right or "wrong" with it. Show it to me 10 days apart and I might give you 2 differing reviews. Nature of the beast.

For me, I'd like the hint. Doesn't have to be before I see the pic, but I'd still like the hint.

All of which is a long winded way to say I'm not comfortable critiquing someone elses' work (seriously) if I don't know the goal, so I seldom do.

Geez, I could'a saved a bunch of typing and you all a bunch of reading if I'd just said that right off the get go, huh? :wink:

[markc]

I think if you are serious about your work, you should be open to a critique. I don't show my work to anyone without expecting, or at least being ready for a critique.
I think that's the goal, but I know a lot of people who have troubles taking a critique. For them it's something that has to be learned. Plus a lot of people aren't all that serious about it. They just want to share.

[photogoddess]

I think if you are serious about your work, you should be open to a critique. I don't show my work to anyone without expecting, or at least being ready for a critique.
I think that's the goal, but I know a lot of people who have troubles taking a critique. For them it's something that has to be learned. Plus a lot of people aren't all that serious about it. They just want to share.

It's nice to share but I am still very serious about it too. :D

[motcon]

which assumes that the photographer knows what (s)he was trying to convey in the pic. Now when motcon, or Dew, or Voodoocat, or vonnagy, or, or, or... post a pic for a critique I'm confident that they know what they were trying to achieve.




.....but that is precisely my point. i know what i want to convey, but how do other people see it? a hint or explanation leads one to my idea. i'm more interested in the impression the photo makes without my words.


for those that aren't sure what they are trying to convey, what is the difference? nothing. if you want a photo posted for critique; post it. whether you intentionally did something or not, i can pretty much assure you that you will get feedback either way.

[MDowdey]

see i guess im the polar opposite of you guys...


i take pictures to take pictures. to have memories that i can look back on...i couldnt give a crappola what someone thinks of it.

however, if everyone wants a critique thread of its own...myself and the others will be happy to lay down the law!!!! :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun:


md

[motcon]

however, if everyone wants a critique thread of its own...myself and the others will be happy to lay down the law!!!! :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun:


md

the beauty of a critique forum is that there are no laws except that one learns and gives so that all elevate their knowledge and desire.

[Geronimo]

I dont think I have my 2 cents in this mess. But why do I take photos?

Because like the great country song of late, "The chicks dig it"

[MDowdey]

however, if everyone wants a critique thread of its own...myself and the others will be happy to lay down the law!!!! :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun: :gun:


md

the beauty of a critique forum is that there are no laws except that one learns and gives so that all elevate their knowledge and desire.


yeah, thats what i meant, geez.


md

[ksmattfish]

If the photographer chooses to give explanation with the photo, that's okay; if not, that's okay too. Different strokes... I learned critique in the classroom, and the artist was always right there to comment upon my comments or give an introduction to the material if they chose to do so.

I think that each critique request should be limited to one photo, unless there is a common theme, it's a triptych, etc... There should be some sort of relation beyond "these were all from the same day or same roll". If the final work is composed of several photos, it should be displayed in the post as such.

I don't think that there needs to be a whole bunch of rules, just an understanding what the critique process is all about. It's asking other folks to spend some time taking a good look at your work and telling you what they think. It doesn't make anyone right or wrong; hopefully it encourages conversation that helps everyone involved learn and grow and think in new ways.

Besides, as I said before, I am an artistic genius, and if you guys can't see my vision, then fooey on you! :twisted:

[gonzo]

so have the mods come to a conclusion about the critique forum yet?

[Chase]

Yep...it will be created. I've just been lazy, but I'll try to get it going sometime today. 8)