Critiques

[KevinR]

It is really an interesting study on watching the way people critique on the TPF. JonMikal brought that up in the Why Phase thread. I understand that overall, people want to be encouraging. But just being nice and forsaking any constructive criticism really doesn't help anybody. I know that I go after the shots that have 0 replies, but plenty of looks. Yes, that in itself probably says alot, but it isn't helpful.

So I was wondering how some of you go about your critique? Does feelings play a bigger role than probably should?

Just something I've been thinking about for a few days.

[terri]

What I've noticed is that a lot of people seem to reserve their *best* stuff for the critique thread....it sometimes seems more like an "attaboy" place than a place to really give a thoughtful review ("I like this but really don't like that, because...."). When you can tell someone has put a lot of effort into an image and they're not prefacing it with any disclaimer ("How could I have done this or that better?") it almost seems boorish to say anything negative...whatever your thoughts might be. I know I have stayed away from some images that were presented like that.

It can be a dilemma, though, I hear ya Kev. :thumbup:

:aside to JonMikal: Your comments about the way some of your stuff has been received was very refreshing. Your frankness was wonderful. I didn't really know how to tell you I agreed with what you were saying, without sounding like I was belittling your body of work....so I said nothing. ;) So hopefully you'll know it now. :)

[Jeff Canes]

I have had the same thing happen to my post and nobody replies, I not sure if it mean any thing. Also, I look at a lot post myself and do not replay. Mostly because I do not thing anything is wrong with the image, it just not my style, or it’s really bad.

Does “Feeling” play to big a roll? NO, for me a lot about art it is a gut felling or lower.


Jon some people's bad pics are pretty good

[Nikon Fan]

Good topic Kevin :)

For me personally I try to be as helpful as possible. In the general photo gallery it seems most aren't looking for critique, so I personally try to say what I really like about the pic and leave out the bad. However in the critique I try to be as honest and helpful as I can be. Still listing what I like, but also trying to kindly point out the things that make the image not up to par in my mind.

What's interesting is the broad taste that the people that come here share. Look through posts that have loads of pics in them...and then read the replies. You'll notice that many times, especially when the person has lots of quality pics that the variation of favorites spreads across the table. So even though someone (such as Jon and the sly devil that he is ;) ) could intentionally post a bad pic, someone may actually enjoy it b/c artists have different tastes. And yes sometimes it's for pure suck up purposes only :lol:

One thing I know for sure is that there are very few posts that do get passed up. I was at a few other forums before finding this one, and you were lucky to get a response...so even if the critiques are just mushy crap...at least someones looking and taking the time to respond :) Also it seems that the times that posts go w/o replies are sometimes the ones that have been posted at the same time with a plethora of other pics and get lost in the mix.

Kevin, I used to try and reply to threads with 0 replies, especially in the critique section, but I kind of burned myself out on it too quickly. But it's a good habit to pick up, even if you don't like the shot ;)

One things for sure...at least people here make comments because you don't get that everywhere :)

[JohnMF]

i havent been on this forum very long but i've found generally that the longer standing members seem to give a more honest/constructive critique in as much as theyre not afraid to tell you your picture is a bit crap or what you could do to improve it. I think one of my first posts in the critique was labelled "boring" :) (and it was) . But it must be a bit annoying for the likes of jonmikal, he never gets anything but praise for everything he posts, Id find that a bit frustrating myself.

Also, I prefare it when people give a little explanation or idea of what they where trying to acheive when they took the photograph rather than just plonking it there! This helps when trying to critique something i think.

[ksmattfish]

Also, I prefare it when people give a little explanation or idea of what they where trying to acheive when they took the photograph rather than just plonking it there! This helps when trying to critique something i think.

I agree. I'm much more likely to give a critique to a photo where I know a little about what is going on: assignment, equipment, photog's ideas, etc...

There are so many images posted here. Many go past before I get a chance to see them. Something in the subject, or the technique, or the possibilities has got to grab me for me to critique an image. On the other hand, when all I say is "Nice pic" or "Good job", I really mean it! ;)

I also find it hard to critique from a low res file. I always wonder what an actual print would look like.

I think that the way we communicate via text posts makes the act of critique take a lot more energy than if we were all hanging out in a room together. I can be blunt with a person face to face. When it's text only I try to be more careful; words can read more negative than it's meant to be.

[Hertz van Rental]

I agree with Matt. There are so many pictures going up so quickly at times - and sometimes the pages load so slowly - that I just give up trying to look. Also a good and useful critique takes time because it tends to be a bit of a question and answer session - difficult when the other person is off line.
I have started doing the occasional serious effort (one such effort started a thread in this forum) but to be honest I find that it is not only the pictures that can disappear without trace. It may sound arrogant, but I have done enough critiques over the years as a Photography lecturer to know what I am doing and how to give a useful crit. To try to say something useful and see it get swallowed up or be ignored tends to make me feel it isn't worth bothering.
I also get the feeling a lot of the time that many of the people posting their work for 'critiqueing' want nothing of the sort - they just want to be told they are wonderful. But that's life.

[sillyphaunt]

I agree with Matt. There are so many pictures going up so quickly at times - and sometimes the pages load so slowly - that I just give up trying to look. Also a good and useful critique takes time because it tends to be a bit of a question and answer session - difficult when the other person is off line.
I have started doing the occasional serious effort (one such effort started a thread in this forum) but to be honest I find that it is not only the pictures that can disappear without trace. It may sound arrogant, but I have done enough critiques over the years as a Photography lecturer to know what I am doing and how to give a useful crit. To try to say something useful and see it get swallowed up or be ignored tends to make me feel it isn't worth bothering.
I also get the feeling a lot of the time that many of the people posting their work for 'critiqueing' want nothing of the sort - they just want to be told they are wonderful. But that's life.

Good points everyone, but I totally agree with Hertz (except the part about being a photography lecturer.. I'm not. :lol: )

I usually don't even look at the critique's section anymore because I got a bit disenchanted with it. I found the person that gave the best critiques was craig, simply becuase the times he critiqued my work, he told me exactly WHAT he liked about it, and did it in a way that helped me think about the shot differently.

If I see a shot that is so so, and I have seen the person not take criticism well, or really don't think they're looking for an indepth critique, I will just skip over the photo. But if I see something that I feel like I can add to and they will recieve it, I will give my 2 cents.

I also think that some people are intimidated (like me) because they feel very amateurish compared to many of the "giants" here. Its hard to critique someone that has their own photography business, etc etc, when you've only been "doing" this for 6 months and consider yourself a novice. That may be why people just ooh and ahh over some photos.

Also, it may just be where they are at in their photography journey. Some of the pictures that 4 months ago I thought were amazing, I now think "ehhh that's okay", just because I know how to do it, and I realize that they're not all that hard to do. When I used to be amazed by the posing of a subject, now I pay more attention to DOF, lighting, composition, etc.

I look back at my OWN photos and wonder why in the world I thought they were that great when I took them. So maybe a "crap" shot to JonMikal would be a huge acheivement to someone else. Heck, in the beginning, I was just amazed that people could take shots without camera shake, and saw anyone that could get decent lighting as a "pro". :lol:

I have also appreciated the attitude of many people here that has been inviting to people of any skill level. I have tried to get involved in some other photo forums, and was put off by the attitude that if you're not shooting in your own studio with $1000 worth of lights, then you're not worth the time. I've never felt that here.

[KevinR]

Really good points all. :thumbup:

I was hoping this would open up some dialogue on this subject. What I was hoping also, was that other people would at least read the thread and get an idea of what the critique gallery should be for.

Alot of times, it turns out that people are just looking for compliments, not an honest critique.This isn't always a bad thing, I just think the focus just changes.

[tempra]

I believe that I've only given my critique on a couple of photos and I am pretty much struggling to reach amateur status, nevermind pro - but sometimes I feel that I can contribute. Quite often my thoughts have already been covered, so what is the point in me repeating what is said, at other times I can find nothing to critique just saying wow doesn't improve anyones technique, and then there are the times that I'm completely uninterested in the subject matter, so to critique it or comment on it would be biased.

I like to comment in the gallery, although I have hardly had time to do that lately, but I do try and give reasons behind my preferences or otherwise for certain shots.

From the photos I post, getting some good constructive feedback helps me to improve myself, and perhaps one day be good enough to consider myself an amateur - although I learn a lot from reading the forum, and looking at the shots and thinking about lighting, angles, subjects etc, and from there, if there's anything I'd like to try, I'll experiment and research how to do it. Reading Wow Cool and Awesome in thread after thread is not what I take from this forum, it's the actual pictures themselves and a want to learn how on my behalf that is helping me.

mind you, Wow, Cool and Awesome are very welcome and give me a short term happy spell when they're underneath my shots :mrgreen:

[Big Mike]

I agree that the critique section could use a kick in the pants. There does tend to be more 'Wow's and less constructive criticism. There could be many reasons for this, as Matt said, critique that is just read on the screen can come off as being harsh or mean when that is not the intention. This is just such a friendly place that it leads to friendly comments.

Some people's photos get more comments than others. Some of that has to do with popularity, not much you can do about that. I think it's also a bit of give & take. People might be more inclined to return a critique for someone that has commented on their photos. I personally try to comment on photos that spark an immediate feeling...sometimes that's just a 'Wow'...but sometimes, flaws or nitpicks stand out and I try to point them out.

Maybe people could start up small critique circles. I have participated in one before and it's quite helpful. A group, say less than 10 people, would pick a weekly topic and each submit a photo. The other members would each offer their critique and criticism. I guess that's pretty much what we have here but the idea is that all the members of the circle will participate with each photo.

[Hertz van Rental]

At the risk of getting swamped or ignored I can be tempted into a serious crit via PM. People just have to ask.

[ksmattfish]

Even though it seems like I'm on TPF constantly, I don't have enough time to really give a good look at every photo posted. For both the critique gallery and the standard gallery, the first thing I see is who made the post, and a title. With only that information to go on I decide whether to click one post or another. I do usually look at certain posters' work; there are many reasons for this: I like their stuff, I'm interested in a technique or equipment they are using, etc... But the other way I make the decision to look is a catchy title phrase, so don't skimp on the titling effort if you want more people to look. ;)

[Meysha]

It seems like a lot of us have been thinking the same thing; the critique section needs, as Big Mike so eloquently put it, "a kick in the pants".

I think it basically comes down to the time we all have to write what we think. Or to turn what we think into something constructive. ;-) That said, there aren't that many photos posted in the critique section, compared to the photo gallery at least.

Regards your original question - how do I go about my critiquing?
I always try to say to myself before I open a photo that I'm going to comment on it, if I like the photo or not. I know how it really bugs me when I have 50 or more views and no responses. Even if I don't know what it is about the picture that I do or don't like, I'll say that.
Also, There are people's posts that I always open, either because they've been nice to me before (but not necessarily photo related), or I really like their style or I know there'll be something different there. And other times, I just don't have the time to reply to photos.

I also get the feeling a lot of the time that many of the people posting their work for 'critiqueing' want nothing of the sort - they just want to be told they are wonderful. But that's life.
I think I've got to agree that people seem to be doing this a little. I'll only venture over into the critique section if I've deliberately gone out and tried to capture a specific shot, and I know I'll be able to go back and reshoot it using the suggestions gathered. But strangely I seem to get more feedback in the Photo Gallery :lol:

Maybe we should start a pact or have an oath that people have to take... to swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. :lol:

[Chase]

I'm really happy to see this discussion and agree with much of what has been said. Unfortunately, I don't know how to go about improving it, so threads like this really do help.

[Hertz van Rental]

I'll have a think about it and if I can come up with some workable ideas I'll let you kick them around.

[Nikon Fan]

I think that Will used to have critique sessions during a specific chat time, but I think that went down the tubes. I like Big Mike's idea of critique circles...wonder if there is anyway to get this started. Guess we could start a post and then anyone that wants to join could. Then those people are divided into groups, and email each other with critiques, and each member must respond with meaningful thoughts and comments. So it would be more for those that are serious...those that don't contribute get dropped from the circle, and new people can always be added...that's all I can think of at the moment :)



On a sidenote, Hertz I have noticed that you take the time when you can tell people really want a critique and I really appreciate it :) Your posts always make me think and reconsider things. So I'll definitely keep a PM critique in mind.. ;)

[tr0gd0o0r]

I also think that some people are intimidated (like me) because they feel very amateurish compared to many of the "giants" here. Its hard to critique someone that has their own photography business, etc etc, when you've only been "doing" this for 6 months and consider yourself a novice. That may be why people just ooh and ahh over some photos.

I think the views of people like you can often be some of the most valuable information the very people you are intimidated by can get. If a whole bunch of "pro" photogs are discussing an image, there are years and years of experience, learning rules, technique and things like that going into the critique. Input from a novice can be more genuine and tell the photog what is really being portrayed by the image, without as much concern for all the small technical details.

[danalec99]

I agree that the critique section could use a kick in the pants. Could'nt agree more!
It is really dishearteing to see the Critique section shrinking to a "Pat" section. People should honestly disect the images rather than thinking "What if it hurts them"? Hurts?? Folks should first read the Critique FAQ -They weren't nice to my photo
-Use the criticism and grow. That is what this forum is all aboutNone of us are infants. We all should learn to take criticisms. Those of us who really want to advance will take the comments constructively. Others will eventually clear off from the Crit section.


When you can tell someone has put a lot of effort into an image and they're not prefacing it with any disclaimer ("How could I have done this or that better?") it almost seems boorish to say anything negative...whatever your thoughts might be.I can understand what you are highlighting here but I must beg to differ due to the end result your silence would breed!
Do you want to be in the good books or do you want to be part of the photographer's (be it a beginner or a veteran) growth? :) This is not to just terri. This is to all photographers who withhold their comments due to this fear that they might hurt the posters.

[Hertz van Rental]

I generally refrain from commenting in the Crit section not because I am afraid of hurting people's feelings (though I hope I am capable of phrasing my crit in a way that wouldn't hurt feelings) but for the following two reasons:
95% of the photos require exactly the same crit. This would get boring very quickly. The basics of the standard crit would read:
Why did you take this picture? What was it about the view/object/person/scene/situation that caught your eye and made you want to photograph it/them? The overwhelming impression that I get is that you have not thought about what what you are doing or why. You seem to have taken the picture simply because you have seen others just like it and you believe it is the sort of picture you should take when you practice Photography. A photograph - when not being done for commercial purposes and if it is to have any real meaning - should be a personal response to a situation/subject that gives the viewer at least some idea of what it was you felt about the scene or saw in the object. When taking a picture you therefore need to think a little about what you want the viewer to experience so that you can use PoV, lighting, composition and all the other tools of the trade as a means of conveying this. Go and reshoot it with this in mind and then come back so that we can discuss ways of you improving your communication skills.

The second reason is that I know from experience that when I give some serious advice about improvement the student is either incapable or unwilling to accept that I know what I am talking about. They honestly believe that talking about anything other than getting the right exposure or straightening the verticals is a load of b*llocks and just so much hot air. But then they wonder how it is that some people seem to be able to take brilliant pictures that hold their attention whilst theirs are, even in their estimation, just not very good.

At the risk of going on at length (if anyone complains I'll just edit it out ;-) ), a little anecdote. This was the very first crit I received when I was at College and it still stands in my mind as the best and most effective print crit anyone could give a novice - it sure taught me a lot and made me think long and hard.
The first day of the Photography course we were all given a film and sent out to take pictures, the aim being to learn about processing and printing b&w. The brief was to find some shots that we thought were interesting and practice our embryonic skills. Just because it was a technical exercise we were still told to try and take the best picture we could. There would be individual crits at the end of the week.
Naturally we all went out with the intention of taking the best picture in the world so that we could impress the tutors and our fellow students with our abilities.
The College was at Bournemouth - a rather beautiful seaside resort on the South coast of England - and a ten minute walk from the cliffs and beach. An amazing place for photo opportunities especially in the glorious late Summer sunshine.
We did the business and went through the darkroom and I produced what, to my mind, was the best picture I had ever taken. Perfectly exposed and printed, it was a picture of two deck-chairs on the beach, the wind blowing the canvas seats and the sun making interesting shadows.
I went into my crit at the end of the week feeling bouyant and supremely confident.
My two tutors, Tony and Paul, looked impassively for about ten seconds at the print I put on the table, then Tony looked bored and started cleaning his nails. Paul started rolling a cigarette. After a minute or two's silence, Tony glanced up and saw I was still there. "Show him", he said to Paul. Paul, without looking, opened a drawer and, pulling out a huge wad of prints, dumped them on the table and went back to cigarette rolling. Every single print was an almost identical picture to mine - and there were about a hundred. "Never mind, mate," said Tony. "Everyone does that the first time. Send the next one in."
I left the room with my ego totally crushed. But then I started to think. The pictures represented years of students taking the same picture, going through the same crit proceedure that I had, and suffering the same fate. And they had probably felt exactly the same as me at every stage - and I knew, too, that I wouldn't be the last.
That weekend I thought long and hard about me, my pictures and Photography having learned one of the most valuable lessons of my life.
On the Monday Paul came up behind me and slapped me on the back. "Now the only way is up, mate. Start taking your own pictures - not someone else's."
I've borne that in mind ever since.

[KevinR]

Yeah, but was it one of the best examples of that shot? :lol:

That is what everybody who starts to take photography seriously needs.

Find your own voice (vision).

[Andrea K]

i havent read all the posts in this thread, no time right now, but the main reason that i dont post harsh critiques is basically because i know that i dont know what im talking about...personally my own pictures arent good so if i said something negative about someone else's picture i would have nothing of my own to back it up and will end up looking like a cocky, ignorant a**. i try to get some honest critique from people but most times its simply just "nice!" or "cool!" or nothing at all. so when i first started posting pictures here i would get those responses and wouldnt see any other type of critique so naturally when i started commenting on peoples' posts i said the same thing.

edit: i have read a few more posts and was thinking about my own habits and on another site that i visit, i only post what i think are my best pictures and more often than not i wont get any replies and i find that they offer more honest and harsh critique when they do reply. its funny how i often post comments on peoples' pictures here (although not so much in the past few weeks) but on the forum where people offer real critique i have yet to comment on someone's pic. probably because i know that i know nothing and i dont want to be criticized for saying something irrelevant or the like.

[danalec99]

Start taking your own pictures - not someone else's.":thumbsup:

[pursuer]

This thread has really made me think about the way I comment on the photographs posted here. Like many others I feel I am still pretty far down the learning curve and don't really have any business critiquing others work and for this reason I generaly avoid the critique section. Peoples feelings definatly play a large role in the comments I do make, in the future I will try to spout less mindless compliments and try to offer more honest comments.

I also want to thank Hertz van Rental for taking the time to write up the the above post. It in particular has giving me a lot to think about.

Even if the the comments on this forum are not always that constructive it is still a great community, this discussion can only make it an even better one :)

[JonMikal]

great thread! it's difficult to know exactly where to post a comment when you're trying to target all members, eh? however, a lot has been said about our critique forum and now it's time to step up and take action!

[Meysha]

a lot has been said about our critique forum and now it's time to step up and take action!

I think Ive already seen a bit of a change - especially wrt to comments by people who've already commented in this thread.

i dont post harsh critiques is basically because i know that i dont know what im talking about...

I know what you mean here. Neither do I. I've got hardly any photography education but I still know when I like a photo or not. I may not know what makes a photo good or great but I always find myself asking questions about the photos I see here. And I reckon that if I'm asking myself these questions then someone else must be too. So I like to pass on these 'layperson' thoughts I have.

I doubt it will ever happen but if anyone laughs at me coz of what I say with my non existant knowledge I'll sign em up to so many viagra/porn mailing lists they'll be sorry. ;-) *jks*

[ShutteredEye]

Chase & Hertz:

What if we developed an online form for critiques? One for the photographer, and one for the critiquer?

Photographer:
EXIF data, location, story behind the shot, what trying to accomplish, aspects most concerned about (lighting, focus etc.),

Critiquer:
Maybe some voting scales for lighting, focus, DOF, composition etc. Then a section for comments. Then the form answers could be compiled into a global "rating" etc and the comments could be compiled into a list etc.

Then outside these two sections we could have the standard thread. This way people that are shy about critiquing could do so fairly anonymously with the critique form, but we would still have the section to post in as well.

Just a thought.

[Nikon Fan]

Chase & Hertz:

What if we developed an online form for critiques? One for the photographer, and one for the critiquer?

Photographer:
EXIF data, location, story behind the shot, what trying to accomplish, aspects most concerned about (lighting, focus etc.),

Critiquer:
Maybe some voting scales for lighting, focus, DOF, composition etc. Then a section for comments. Then the form answers could be compiled into a global "rating" etc and the comments could be compiled into a list etc.

Then outside these two sections we could have the standard thread. This way people that are shy about critiquing could do so fairly anonymously with the critique form, but we would still have the section to post in as well.

Just a thought.


Oooh I like that idea :) Not sure how feasible it is, but a good idea. Maybe part of the critique forum should be is that when we post a pic, we must put the purpose, data, and all the things you mentioned in it. Then those that do critique can just rate the things you mentioned, and that way it would all be done in the same thread...

I think it would definitely help people think before they post in the critique section, and it would also give those that write critiques something more to go by, essentially eliminating the "wows".... Great idea Mountainlander :)

[Meysha]

It'd probably be a good thing if the 'points' or stars or whatever weren't public. Otherwise i reckon it'd start to get a bit competitive like some other sites.

Good idea Robert!